#91: How to Monetize a Podcast Without Losing Your Integrity

Chad Sowash (00:00.184)
Was built to be a business from day one.

Rhona Pierce (00:01.518)
Talking shit about a brand is actually free consulting for them.

Chad Sowash (00:05.356)
got some stuff wrong, but you got some stuff right. And then there's a relationship that starts.

Rhona Pierce (00:10.19)
Have you ever had a sponsor push back on something that you said?

Chad Sowash (00:14.692)
yeah, of course, of course. And one of the things that we say up front with every sponsor, you don't own us, we don't own you. Everything that we say is what we say and you have no control over it.

Rhona Pierce (00:26.402)
What do brands want that most creators don't realize that they need to bring to the table?

Chad Sowash (00:32.514)
Most creators don't even understand their audience. It's not Tommy John underwear. It's not Blue Apron Meal Kits. It is a platform that they're spending thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars for. This is keeping your brand top of mind so that when that buyer is looking to buy, guess what?

Rhona Pierce (00:54.594)
I will not talk about software that I haven't personally used.

Chad Sowash (00:57.518)
Do not, I repeat, do not over-promise and under-deliver.

Rhona Pierce (01:03.266)
Most HR creators are still debating whether they should even take brand deals. Chad Sowash has been monetizing since day one. And with a long-running podcast built on saying the quiet part out loud and a track record of brand partnerships that actually last, he's proof you don't have to soften your opinions to keep a sponsor happy. Today, we're talking about what it actually takes to build a lucrative content business without having to compromise your integrity in the process. Chad, welcome to Workfluencer.

Chad Sowash (01:33.304)
Thanks for having me.

Rhona Pierce (01:35.576)
So for folks who haven't met you yet, what's the Chad Sowash story in thirty seconds?

Chad Sowash (01:41.73)
Go. That's a hard one. It's tomorrow I'm fifty-five. So that is very hard. yeah, I would say that I was a guy who that's a very good question. That in 30 seconds, I've already used 15 of it. I would say generally, just just a hard driver. started in the military, you know, I were straight out of high school. popped out in the civilian world and was able to use a lot of that.

enthusiasm and and drive in the in s in the civilian sector and it and and it worked out for me. Here I am talking into a mic for a little

Rhona Pierce (02:20.43)
Amazing. And happy birthday and thank you for your service. Thank you. So, we're here to talk about if the Chat and Cheese podcast, among other stuff. Yeah. But take me back to when you started the podcast. Like what year did you guys start it?

Chad Sowash (02:37.506)
We started well, if you count the year that it took me to get Cheesman on the mic, we it was two thousand six. Took took me a year to get his ass off the couch. but we we started actually started recording in March of twenty seventeen, or at least we started dropping episodes March of twenty seventeen.

Rhona Pierce (02:57.622)
is like way back before everyone had a podcast. like what was the thinking when you built it? Like did you build it to be a business from day one or was it just like a hobby?

Chad Sowash (03:12.418)
Yeah, no, it was built to be a business from day one. Not that we knew that it was going to succeed. both Joel and I, I had come out of two years building at Ronstad, and I was done. I was burnt out and I needed something. So I revived my consulting practice and he had just started up a tech company. And we needed

I I thought we needed a brand exercise because we had both been out. He had he had been building and I had been building for a couple of years. And before that, we were on the on the circuit as speakers. but two years is a long time not to be on the circuit, right? So we thought I thought it'd be a great brand exercise. And through the whole negotiation process, I mean, we're both business guys.

it was fairly simple. It was like, look, we need to make money day one to be able to wash the cost. if we can be in the black, great. If we're even, if we're cutting it even, that's great too. and luckily on day one we were we were in the black.

Rhona Pierce (04:17.26)
Wow. If you've made it this far into the episode and you're not subscribed yet, now's a good time. So take me back to like what was that first pitch like? Cause there wasn't like a lot of people doing it this way back then.

Chad Sowash (04:32.952)
Yeah. Well, I mean, and that's that's the thing. I think a lot of people get into it today that want to be influencers. we had almost at that time almost 20 years apiece in the space. So it's not just the expertise in the space that we have, but we also had connections. So we could reach out to our friends who were CEOs at the time, our founders, CEOs of vendors, and say, Hey, look, we're starting this new thing. What do you think?

if you want to get behind it, it's gonna cost X. Here's what you're gonna get out of it. And and so we went to Friends. It's almost like a friends and family round, you know, when you're because this was a startup. It really was a startup. So it was kind of like a friends and family round. We went out, talked to our friends, and then it just grew from there.

Rhona Pierce (05:20.984)
That's amazing. and and thank you for for your honesty, because so many people skip over and don't say that part. It's like, no, you had connections, you called up your friends. That's really how most people get their first deals, right? Yeah. So like now and and even back then, when you're walking into a brand conversation, what are you actually selling to them?

Chad Sowash (05:45.562)
I mean it's it's really trust. I mean, it's trust in your audience. And if you think about it, there's so many there's so much noise that's out there today. not to mention we've been in this space being the HR, you know, recruitment tech space for over 20 years. And many companies, buyers have heard that song dance bullshit before and they've gotten burnt before.

Right. So do they trust the CEO and founder when they start pitching or when they start talking about, you know, vision statements and all that? No, they they they totally turn you off. So what do they do? They go to people that they trust. And it you you'll hear it out there, and sometimes it sounds like bullshit, but it's really not. I mean, it it's definitely not in our case because our our listeners trusted us. that's how we grew the entire business. So I mean, the first

six months. I mean, listen to the first Chat G's podcast. It was shit. The audio was bad. I mean, it's just like we had so much to learn about the the mechanics of a podcast at that point. About six months in we started to find our stride. And about that time the audience found us too and we started to hockey stick. we also, I mean, we did a ton of market intelligence kind of things, you know, starting to take a look at the market.

How many podcasts were out there? What were they talking about? Where was the gap? not to mention also taking a look at the actual macro market, the smartphones at that point. Smartphones were starting to gain huge traction with podcasts. so we we caught it, we did enough research, and then we caught it at the right time.

Rhona Pierce (07:38.892)
That is also something that I appreciate, you acknowledging that. It it's a lot harder, I think, for people starting now because there's just way more competition and like everyone has heard it. Everyone has a podcast. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I think there's room for everyone. There's room for even more podcasts, right? but I I really appreciate you acknowledging like, yeah, you caught it at the right time, type of thing.

What do like in your experience and talking to to brands and everything for all these years, what do brands want that most creators don't realize that they need to bring to the table?

Chad Sowash (08:23.38)
Creators don't even understand their audience. I mean, I don't know how many times I talk to a new podcaster or again, somebody who wants to be an influencer, and they don't know who their audience is. It's like, well, what are you selling? I mean, you're trying to sell something to somebody. You've got a buyer in mind, or maybe you don't have a buyer in mind. You have to understand who your audience is, who's listening to you, and then who your target market is. So, I mean, for us, right out of the gate.

we did we did a ton of market analysis. we also focused on format. So we were kind of like being Howard Stern meets HR Tech, taking a look at monetization models, revenue, you know, revenue models, and then your ICP. You have to know who your ideal customer profile is. And we rarely ever work with advertising agencies.

Because we are focused on, we're not playing this bullshit cost per thousand thing. We're doing sponsorships. Because when people are buying in our space, in the HR tech space, it's not low-cost transactional stuff. It's not Tommy John underwear. It's not blue apron meal kits. It is a platform that they're spending thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars for, right? So if you know that.

And you're selling them a flight over two weeks, you're doing yourself and you're doing that company a disservice. So from our standpoint, we came out of the blocks and said, look, you know, this is it I think it took us about six months, but we were looking at at least starting at three month chunks. Hey, you have to do it for three months because this to for this to work, it's gonna take at least that. Well, now we're we're up to a year. So if you want a commitment with chat and cheese, it's gonna be a year.

Because take a look at the buying cycles for something like this. Again, I'm not going to buy Tommy John underwear. This isn't a quick transaction. I'm not going to a website and buying a million dollar platform just overnight, or I'm not going to start an RFP just because I heard a podcast. Right. So you have to be there. And if people don't, and if you're not selling to the point that look, this is this is keeping your brand top of mind.

Chad Sowash (10:46.508)
So that when that buyer is looking to buy, guess what? You're there.

Rhona Pierce (10:53.182)
That is something that like I think we always talk about it from the brand perspective, at least the conversations I have with other creators. It's like, brands don't understand this, brands don't understand this. But the truth is a lot of creators also aren't really understanding it or like if they understand it, they're not positioning themselves in a way to sell it that way because it's true. If you accept like a two week sponsorship, like we know nothing's gonna happen. Like you know it's going to fail.

Chad Sowash (11:22.178)
Yeah.

Rhona Pierce (11:22.998)
Yeah. And I say fail in quotes because it's working exactly as planned.

Chad Sowash (11:28.942)
Well, and I was I mean, I was lucky enough because before I was I I started in this space, I was in radio. So I I got an opportunity to understand the mechanics, not just of how to build an hour format, which is pretty much what Chad and Cheese is. So we were able to build a talk show format and understand where the where the breakpoints are, those types of things, topic changes, those types of things.

but also to really to understand that this is podcasting in itself is a business there are models that work whether it's the actual format itself or the monetization models and then also understanding the products that you're selling and not underselling yourself for those and that's another thing I see so many podcasters

go out there and they'll and they will they will undersell themselves every single day of the week. And it's like you you have more value than that. Look at what these companies are trying to sell. Look at the price point they're trying to sell it at. You're worth more than

Rhona Pierce (12:42.912)
Why do you think that is that they're undervaluing themselves?

Chad Sowash (12:48.11)
confidence. I mean, it's it's something that's new to them. they might not have a radio background like some people in in actually building products around, you know, air time. but yeah, a lot of it has to do with with with confidence. and that's the thing is whenever I talk to anybody in in our space, I ask them confidentially, let me take a look at your packages. Let me take a look at your packages. because I'll rip them apart. I'll help you rebuild them.

And then we'll take a look at the actual value model that you put in place.

Rhona Pierce (13:20.728)
I love that. and you've talked about product a lot. And I understand it as your product, the packages, the the sponsorships that you're selling. I wanna be clear for anyone listening that we're not necessarily and correct me if I'm wrong, talking about like product in the sense of like chat and cheese is selling some tangible thing. It's like, no, you're you are the product, right?

Chad Sowash (13:45.602)
Yes. Yeah, yeah. We're the product. I mean, the only thing that we do from a tangible standpoint is we do events, so you can actually shake our hands. we do have and this is goes back to the radio days too. We give stuff away. You listen to to drive time radio. You were, you know, they were giving one lucky listener something away. Every every month we give away t-shirts, sponsored by AirNap. We've got beer that we give away, sponsored by Aspen Tech. We have

You know, whiskey. I mean, we have all these different things that we do. but again, those are all productized around what I knew, which was radio. And we were really building kind of like this this talk show morning drive kind of product that was out there. And that product, you know, was either Howard Stern and Robin, or if you came from the Midwest where I came from, I actually worked at a radio station that had Bob and Tom.

Which was another syndicated radio show that went all over the United States.

Rhona Pierce (14:50.25)
Yeah, it's i and I think a lot of people look at things and they look like at your show. I've had conversations with people who are like, yeah, I'm starting a podcast. I want to have the t-shirts, I want to have this, just like chat and cheese. And I'm like, Do you understand that every single thing is sponsored? They're not paying for any of this. This is all sponsored. And it's like to me, that's like looking at your business from the outside. Obviously, I don't know the the the details. It's like, wow.

Every single like you can tell it's a business. It's not just this two guys and their guest co-host having fun and giving stuff away. It's like everything is making money somehow in exchange for the trust that you have with your audience and the access.

Chad Sowash (15:38.158)
Yeah. Well, the value. And I think that's the thing, that's the key, is what is the actual value? And if you're if you're building a podcast, number one, you know, you want to focus on content and and do your do your market research to make sure that you're not just duplicating what everybody else is doing out there. And when when we first got into this space, it it wasn't that everybody was doing the same thing. We just saw that there was an area that n nobody was touching.

And we thought, holy shit, we could we could do that. Let's see how it works. So do that research and then start to understand from a productization standpoint, how you can start to build in different things that add value to, you know, different different prospects that you're trying to go out and sell. I think that was the biggest key is like, look, we need to have specific types of products that

Are good for some of these organizations. And then there are other organizations that are smaller startups who maybe they can't afford that, but they want to look at being involved and doing something entirely different. So we have literally different segments of products that are targeting those different levels of vendors.

Rhona Pierce (16:56.16)
Amazing. there's this belief 'cause have these conversations and people are like, sure, great. This all sounds great, but like you need to have a huge audience before brands will even talk to you. Have you found that to be true?

Chad Sowash (17:11.714)
No, not at all. I mean, and it's interesting because I mean, if you take a look at niche and and HR's niche, right? Yeah. if you take a look at niche audience, that can especially in HR and HR tech, that is our superpower, right? It t there aren't a ton, if you take a look at you're not gonna get Joe Rogan numbers. You just can't because he is he is broad, broad based, incredibly general, right? And we're not general.

So what do we do? We understand, first and foremost, our listener, and we know who to target from a listener standpoint. And then on the other side, we know who wants to sell to that listener, right? And then at that point, we understand that if you know your audience and you can as super niche.

then you can go after those different platforms or what have you instead of once again going back to Tom and John underwear and blue apron mill kits, which are just transactional. And I mean, you can try that route, the cost per thousand route, but it's gonna kill ya.

Rhona Pierce (18:18.168)
Yeah. It just doesn't even make sense. Like if you do the math, what you would have to sell it for, it's like, why even bother if you go that route? Yeah.

Chad Sowash (18:28.494)
Cost per thousand would have to be huge to be able to do what we do in actual just flat, flat based sponsorships, which again, if you think about it, it's much easier all the way around to be able to pretty much present to an organization and say, look, are you saying it's kind of like pay per click? you're going to pay per click. Okay, so what's that going to be? Well, it depends on what day.

Depends on, you know, when who's clicking, how many clicks have been. It's like, so you don't have like this total understanding of what you're getting from that budget. Same thing with with you know cost per thousand. It feels like the same exact thing. But when you have something that's easy, and we're all about keep it simple, stupid, we are a couple of dumb white dudes who literally just are making it simple, creating simple packages and saying, okay, this is what, this is what it costs for this deliverable, period.

Rhona Pierce (19:27.266)
Without getting into into details on cost or anything like that, just for someone to have an idea of an example, what does a package like include?

Chad Sowash (19:36.654)
Well, I mean, it depends. So, you know, you've got the let's let's go over l let's say just the basic promotional I was talking about earlier with like t shirts, right? That that goes on, and we will do probably I think the last batch was seven hundred t shirts. and so you get Aaron is on the back, right? Big Aaron app logo. And we actually work with them on the logo because it's gotta go with the cool Chad and Cheese t shirt, right? It can't just be a logo.

And those guys are amazing because they and all of our sponsors really love working with us, which I love too. so anyway, you've got that. So you've got our distribution, which we take them out. We first and foremost, we send them out because we have a mailing list for people who have signed up for free stuff, right? Another, another great entry point. So we send those out. So people open up their mailbox, they get this package, which is a designed Chad and Cheese AirNat.

package that they open and we don't get mail much anymore, right? Yeah so when we get stuff, it's usually from Amazon, which we want, or we get something in the ma hopefully not a bill, but we'll get something from Chad and Cheese. Chad and Cheese logo, Air Nap logo, that kind of thing. Open it up, there's a t-shirt and then there's a card inside, that kind of thing. and then during that entire time that we're giving those away, and we're also going to events and we're taking some to events and so on and so forth.

Then we're we're also talking about them on the show every week. Yeah. So when you take a look at deliverable, it's got to be multifaceted on how everything actually works together. And again, that in itself, from a merch standpoint, Joel thought I was stupid when I'm like, t shirts. Why the hell would anybody wear one of our t-shirts? Now they're all over the place. We've had five different designs, five years in a row.

and it's just been a blast, right? So if you build the package right and you can find partners who literally want to partner with you on something like this, you can make it work.

Rhona Pierce (21:46.956)
That is amazing. So talking a little about the content of your show itself, it's built around having like a strong POV on the industry, right? Yeah. But it's also sponsored by brands. And like how do you think through balancing like truth and authenticity and not limiting your chances for future sponsorships?

Chad Sowash (22:07.762)
Yeah, I I think we don't think about that at all. And I think that it's gotta be apparent if you listen to our show. Yeah. and and I want to talk about a couple of of success stories too, because there are so many people that are out that are afraid that are out there today to talk about things. that they're they're afraid they're gonna piss somebody off. And you don't know how many, not just event companies or or podcasts or or writers who who have that that fear.

Right. a couple of companies you might have heard before Paradox and Smart Recruiters. We talked shit about them on several occasions because of stupid shit that they did. Right. And there are several reasons. But then later on down the line, they made some changes. And we were like, hey, we can get behind that. I like that. You know? They became sponsors.

Whether that was because we said we liked it or not, who the hell knows? We didn't even think about that. As a matter of fact, we didn't even reach out to either one of those organizations. They reached out to us, right? So we talked shit about them. Then we started liking to seeing what they were doing, some of the leadership changes, those types of things. I it was pretty amazing. Next thing you know, they're sponsors, not just sponsors of the show.

But they also do sp we've got these the the upper tiers called special projects and also the AI sessions. Yeah. Paradox, we kick off the AI sessions with with Paradox, which is I think now four like four seasons deep. We're gonna we've got a fifth season coming out. amazing. We're sitting down, it's an intimate setup, and we do amazing content with some of the biggest brands you've ever heard. And most of them, they don't even talk about paradox, they just talk about the problems.

And they talk about how tech helped them through the problems, right? Well, people wanted to know what they are actually using. Well, it was paradox. And it led to it just made sense, right? Same thing with smart recruiters. Smart recruiters had new leadership come in. And Rebecca, who's amazing, they called me and said, Hey, can you come out to Madrid? we we wanna we wanna do some some intimate talks with our exec team. So we did that. So I did that.

Chad Sowash (24:29.006)
And we did that in February of last year, 2025. Six months later, they sell to SAP. yeah, yeah, and Paradox sold to work day, by the way. Yeah, exactly. then they had me back out to do the Myorca talks this year, right? Now was it the Chad and Cheese that got them sold? No. But did we have a little bit to do with the narrative?

And helping them actually get that voice out there, you goddamn straight we did, right? So that is the type of value that we bring. And back to your question, do you think about that? No, we don't. And as a matter of fact, we actually have companies that are on our blacklist that if if they even called and said, Hey, we want to spend money with you, we'd say we're not interested. that because you're not who we are, right? You're not our people.

And it it is what it is, right? and I think we're lucky enough, we're privileged enough to be kind of like in that position. And I'm not saying that everybody should be in that position. but that's how we started. and we weren't starting from a position of need to have. Yeah. This was a it was paying for itself and was a nice to have, and then it exploded and it became what it is today.

Rhona Pierce (25:51.98)
I love that story. and I mean, I think talking shit about a brand is actually free consulting for them because if they listen

Chad Sowash (25:59.832)
Yes.

I mean it is. Well, in the beautiful part, and that is that that is that is amazing because the best, the best relationships that we have with vendors in this space are the ones that actually reach out to us after and say, you know what? I think you got some stuff wrong, but you got some stuff right.

And I'll then I'll be like, okay, Crow, let's have a discussion. Yeah. And let's talk a little bit about the wrong and the right. And then there's a relationship that starts there. And the ones who, and I'll give you a great example, eightfold. Man, they've been so pissed at us for so long, but they've never had the balls to actually call and say, you know what, we think you're wrong and or we think you're right, or any of that stuff. There's so many brands.

That literally just try to distance themselves as opposed to literally just embrace it, I think you're 100% right. It's free, it's free advice.

Rhona Pierce (27:01.846)
Yeah, I mean, whether they take it or not is up to them. Yeah. have you ever had a sponsor push back on something that you said?

Chad Sowash (27:11.274)
yeah. of course. Of course. And the the thing is, and one of the things that we say up front with every sponsor, every sponsor, is you don't own us. We don't own you. Okay. Everything that we say is what we say and you have no control over it. So if you don't like it, or if you don't like the op the the the chance that we might say something that's too risky for you, then do not become a sponsor.

Okay. Don't become a sponsor because as soon as you write your, you know, little John Hancock on that annual agreement, we're doing something, right? So that's the thing. It's like, go ahead, dig in. And the thing that gets me is in the space that we are, which is HR and they they fairly risky. I mean, they're they they're not associated with risk also often, right? Yeah. they dig in.

And and I love it. And a lot of those companies, we've been around for nine year nine years. Our track record is about a mean of five years. So, and it would be longer if we didn't have so many of them that got acquired.

Rhona Pierce (28:26.958)
So, as monetization, like as the debate about like monetizing and everything, a lot of it right now centers on AI. And HR Techs are pouring money into it. But there's still so much unknown around like bias, legislation, ethics. Like, as someone who's navigating these brand conversations, how do you think about that responsibility? Like,

Is it on us as creators to vet what we're promoting or are we doing the best that we can with the information that we have?

Chad Sowash (29:01.376)
I think it's all of that. But I mean, AI is here and you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. ethics and responsibility are paramount. There's there's no question. so pick your players carefully, pick your your sponsors carefully. do some, you know, perform some due diligence, get in there.

get get a get a you know demo here and there and and dig a little bit deeper than just the you know the demo that they want to give you. but yeah and and I think at the end of the day you gotta also admit when you're wrong to your listeners because I mean for years we've been talking about enriching profiles and like wow that just seems so smart. It seems so but again unintended consequences. They're enriching profiles, right? And this is what we're seeing with Eightfold right now with FICRA.

They're enriching profiles, but yet there's no validation or verification from the candidate. That's my day. Wait a minute. You're putting a bunch of stuff on my profile that I didn't validate, I didn't verify, right? we all it all sounded great, but again, it's the unintended consequences. Sometimes you just gotta admit when you're wrong. It's like, hey, you know what? I didn't think about this. but what could we do to actually make that work so that there was a verification layer in place?

That takes the conversation even further. but you've got to first embrace and say, you know what, I didn't quite get that right the first time. and I I'd like to think that we we do that. I I hope we do.

Rhona Pierce (30:35.874)
That's a that's a a good perspective on that question on like, yeah, just sometimes you're gonna get it wrong and it just you're doing the best that you can with the information that that you have. And and I think I I take a a similar approach to that. It's like I need to get a demo and I need to not only get a demo, I need to use it. Like that's my that's my rule. I will not talk about software that I haven't personally used.

Just because it's like when you use it and it's it's funny, they get the notes from me on like, well, actually, you're saying this, but this is how I'm using like I literally had that conversation with a brand I'm working with. It's like, I think, like, I love how you present it this way, but I would do this, and they're like, Wait, let's have a meeting, let's talk about this. I love how you discovered how to use it that way. Like it's just, it's part of it. It's not just

Repeating and talking like, blah, blah, blah, and whatever they say. that's another thing. I don't do like, don't you ever give me a script on what to say about your brand. That's a no for me. Like I wanna hear like, no, it's a no.

Chad Sowash (31:46.754)
We get scripts all the time, but it's never the script that is used.

Rhona Pierce (31:51.284)
Exactly. Yeah, no, yeah, exactly. Like you can give me a script, like, cool. This is absolutely not how I would say it. This is what I'm gonna say. This is the angle that I'm gonna take. Cool, we're all cool, great. so you've kept brand relationships going for years, as you mentioned, and you also are getting new ones. Like, what keeps you valuable to sponsors after all this time?

Chad Sowash (32:17.88)
I mean, first off, they dig what we're saying and how we're saying it. the ICP, you know, the the the customers, the the listeners, the the buyers that we are in the heads of, right? Our our target market is it it aligns with their ICP. the acquisitions don't hurt either. I mean, we've had over 10 of our let me count. Yeah, we've had over 10. I've got a list here.

Over 10 of our sponsors who've been acquired. and staying true to yourself. I mean, your listener will know when you've you're deviating from who you are, right? they will. And they'll have some some of them call call you on it sometimes. and I have. And it's funny because like on LinkedIn, because people will connect with you on LinkedIn and and they listen to you on the podcast. So they know you, you know, they know you.

And say, I don't really think that, you know, your your take on XYZ was what you would normally say. I remember when you said this, like, well, pfft, I tell you what, I've evolved much like they have. And I'll give you a great example. Vonk. I gave Vonk shit for for years. Then they got a new C CEO and Ritu. I'm like, I don't know. She doesn't have the experience that I would think that I would want. She's knocked it out of the fucking park, right? Her and the team have.

I actually had somebody say, Well, weren't you giving them shit a couple of years ago? Yeah, I was. Right. I was, but things change and this is what happened. But I love that interaction because our listeners actually they they feel like they can have those interactions with us.

Rhona Pierce (34:03.606)
Yeah, that that's really good. And that says a lot too, because it's not like, my gosh, they're they're flip-flopping, let me just unsubscribe and move on. It's like, hey dude, wait, actually, like that shows a lot of that that trust that you've built. That that's amazing. so any lessons that you've learned the hard way about what not to do when it comes to relationships with brands.

Chad Sowash (34:29.101)
What not to do. Don't, I mean, do not, I repeat, do not overpromise and under deliver. I mean, it's always the the other way around. And I mean, I've I've had a long sales career and also building sales teams, marketing teams, and you always know that, you know, if you set set the the bar low with a really good value and you overdeliver, that's that's what matters. That's what matters. So, you know, build.

What you can value it, but also don't undervalue yourself. That's the that it to me is the is the biggest problem. I don't see that there's a huge problem of of podcasters overvaluing themselves. I think it a lot of it has to do with two things. It's undervalued and they don't allow enough time within the actual commitment. the

It'll be a month, it'll be six weeks. And it's like that's not enough time. You've got to allow that that to flower within the actual head of the listener, the buyer.

Rhona Pierce (35:40.782)
I mean, that's spot on. I'll I'll say it. I'll I'll admit it that when I started and when I started talking to brands and everything, yeah, you have this because you come into this space and you see all these big podcasts and all these people. It's like, come on. And then it's like some of I I'm friends with some people, right? I'm like, hey, Matt Alder for like recruiting future. Hey Matt, how much do you charge for this? He tells me a number, and then I'm like, crap. That means I have to charge.

X less because Matt's been doing this. I'd say, no, that does absolutely does not mean that.

Chad Sowash (36:14.606)
Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't, but there will be conversations. I'm really good friends with Matt. And I'll say, you need to charge more. You are worth more, you know. And and there are several, several podcasters that I've talked to over the years and I've said that. and then also be consistent, right? Again, be true to yourself and then be consistent, not just from the standpoint of your voice, but getting content out there. I think that's a a big key in our space.

is just the consistency of making sure that you're getting your voice out there. th that's another thing.

Rhona Pierce (36:52.012)
Yeah. Is there anything that you think listeners should know that I haven't asked you?

Chad Sowash (36:59.992)
Yeah, I I think i if you're and I I've said it before, but I think it's it's incredibly important to understand is that if you think that you're ready to be a quote unquote influencer, you're probably not. that's the hardest part. I mean, it really is. even with the amount of time that we have. I mean, I I think the the best thing that happened to Joel and I to become quote unquote an influencer.

was that's not how we thought of ourselves. We went in as two guys having conversations, not trying to be, I mean, TikTok really wasn't even big thing back then. not trying to be this big influencer in in the big influencer space. so spend your time in the trenches doing the hard work, right? Joel and I close to 20 years when we started, we're well over 25 now. but but make make that

Time, those those connections, the networking, that's that's what makes business run. just to be able to pop down in and start a podcast, it doesn't mean it's gonna work. If it does, that's awesome. But for the most part, it's just not gonna.

Rhona Pierce (38:20.044)
That is great. So it wouldn't be Workfluencer if I didn't put you in the hot seat. our my favorite segment, and I think a lot of people like it. It's called plead the fifth, right? So I'm gonna ask you three questions. You can answer honestly, or you can plead the fifth. But here's the thing you can only plead once. And you're not gonna know what questions are coming next. So choose wisely. Are you ready?

Chad Sowash (38:45.87)
I like it. I like it. Yeah.

Rhona Pierce (38:47.128)
All right. What's a guest you had on your podcast purely for clout, not because you respected their point of view?

Chad Sowash (38:54.593)
Chad Sowash (38:58.546)
We haven't. I mean, we literally haven't. I've I I have had anybody that we've had on for clout, it's because I I am like a fanboy, right? no, I we we haven't. I'm trying to think. And I mean we're we're over sixteen hundred episodes. So so give me a little, but I'm it answer, non-answer, we haven't. There are there have been some some some episodes that have gone

really badly and we re-recorded them. and I won't I I won't plead the fifth on this one. I'll give you the true the true story. we told them that the the recording equipment went sour and then we had to do it again. so we did it again and we had a much better second run because we knew what we had to do. because we go into all of our interviews cold. All of them

because it for us it just it feels more natural, kinda like this one.

Rhona Pierce (40:00.814)
Cool. All right. what's one topic you avoid discussing publicly because you're not sure you're survived the backlash?

Chad Sowash (40:11.838)
another hard one. 'Cause we've talked about sex robots and we talked about I think

Chad Sowash (40:25.614)
And we talk about only fans.

Yeah, I don't know that there's anything if we can't tie it to recruiting or HR, I don't think there's anything that we haven't talked about. I mean, which is wonderful being an explicit podcast, right? We can talk about it anything. And I might get some texts or something that are like, that was a little bit too far every now and again. But I don't I did yeah, I'm sorry I can't answer that one because I don't know that there's anything that's off limits. Other than Joel's

Rhona Pierce (40:34.339)
Yeah.

Chad Sowash (40:59.422)
dad jokes because they weren't really dad jokes. They were kind of like creepy uncle jokes. And I had them kind of like tone those down a little bit.

Rhona Pierce (41:10.518)
I love how I wonder what Joel's gonna think about about that. all right. Last one, name one company or platform you would never work with again.

Chad Sowash (41:26.584)
Well, I d I can tell you one that I it wouldn't be in again. Does it have to be in again? Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Rhona Pierce (41:36.257)
It doesn't have to be an again.

Chad Sowash (41:38.402)
Okay. I say, well, I mean the the easy answer is, you know, I'll give you my our kind of like top three blacklist sponsors if that if that works. Yeah. So indeed ZipRecruiter in in eightfold.

Rhona Pierce (41:53.752)
Why am I not surprised?

Chad Sowash (41:55.874)
Yeah. I mean indeed. can you imagine our brand? I mean because first and foremost, I we there's been no other company in this space that we have smashed as hard as we have indeed. Indeed. Could you imagine if they just showed up and Joel and I were do we're voicing ads for them. No. No, no, no. I don't I don't think so. ZipRecur, Go figure. I it

S funny story, and then the guy's not there anymore, so I can I can definitely tell it and him not get in trouble. They literally tried to buy all of the ad slots on the show back in the day. Yeah. And we had, it was like we had one slot that opened up. We're like, okay, you said you guys were interested, so on and so forth. And they're like, no, we want to buy the whole thing. And at that point, I was like, you know, go away. We're never selling anything to you.

an eightfold just because they're assholes.

Rhona Pierce (42:56.494)
I can only imagine if you ever like I think if you ever did a ad slot like for indeed, people would be like blink twice. Like did you guys get

Chad Sowash (43:08.174)
I'm doing I'm doing the the the the I'm in trouble

Rhona Pierce (43:16.398)
Side. All right. You survived Cleve the Fifth. Not that I thought you wouldn't. thank you for that. this has been an amazing, amazing conversation. Thank you so much for joining me. Where can listeners connect with you?

Chad Sowash (43:32.496)
LinkedIn, I'm the only Chad Sowash on the face of this this earth right now. I think that's a good thing. and go to Chadcheese.com. There's no and in there, just Chadcheese.com. If you go to Chadandcheese.com, it'll redirect, but either way, Chadcheese.com.

Rhona Pierce (43:52.302)
Amazing. and I'll have all that in the show notes. Thanks again for being on the show. If you're enjoying the Workfluencer pod, share it with someone who's changing how we talk about work or who should be. And hey, if this episode gave you ideas or inspiration, leave us a five-star review. Reviews help other listeners find us. And honestly, it makes my day. This show is produced by Workfluencer Media. Visit Workfluencermedia.com

Chad Sowash (43:56.846)
Thank you.

Rhona Pierce (44:19.512)
To learn how we help companies build video first content systems that attract, engage, and retain qualified talent, that's WorkfluencerMedia.com. Thanks for listening and I'll chat with you next week.