How to Create Content When You Don’t Feel Like It

Jeffrey Fermin (00:00)
man how do I go on here and talk about HR on LinkedIn and I just can't because I am tired I'm exhausted it's just been such a stressful start to the year and I had all of these goals and all of these things that I wanted to do and get off my chest this year then you just turn on the news after a long day of marketing work and talking to people and then it's like holy shit dude like I can't roll

Rhona Pierce (00:21)
When you're doom scrolling and your creative energy is at zero, what do you actually do?

Jeffrey Fermin (00:27)
When I see too much of it, I'm just like, dude, take a step back. This isn't who I am. This is a reflection of what's going on in the world. And I've reacted to it a certain way, reset all the out-gos and move forward.

Rhona Pierce (00:40)
The world feels pretty fucking awful. I'll try again next week. That's what Jeffrey Furman posted when he couldn't bring himself to create content. He's the head of demand gender all voices, a podcast host and someone who's been creating the HR tech space for over a decade. Today, we're not doing a typical interview. We're pulling back the curtain on what it's really like to create when you can barely keep it together. Jeffrey, welcome to Workfluencer.

Jeffrey Fermin (01:06)
Oh my God, that was outstanding. At first I wasn't sure if we were allowed to curse. And then I like, you just said that I was like, oh my God, perfect. That's how I write, that's how I talk. So apologies to my mother if you're gonna watch this. I know I have the mouth of a sailor, it's not her fault, it's just bad stuff. But yeah, thank you for having me on here. By the way, love what you've been doing and the people you've been collaborating with are all like kind of internet friends with me. So love that you're getting them on and giving them like a little platform to go in and speak their piece.

Rhona Pierce (01:36)
I guess I should probably apologize to my mom too. Sorry mom. All right, so for those who don't know you yet, what's the Jeffrey Furman story in like 30 seconds?

Jeffrey Fermin (01:48)
Oh my goodness. So I have been in HR tech for 14 years now. Wow. I'm like a dinosaur as my friend Marine would say, right? So yes, I've been in the HR tech space. started a company called the office vibe. were a pull survey system, people analytics dashboard, did some consulting here and there with a couple smaller brands. And now I've been at all voices for almost five years, which is almost as long as I was at office vibe. It's insane to me.

But yes, in these past 14 years, I've spoken to a lot of HR practitioners, business leaders. even like stepped into Goldman and helped them bring in ⁓ millennials in the workplace. I gave them a whole strategy to work with. So yeah, it's been a very unique ⁓ non-linear career path. I mean, I studied psychology and loved the organizational psychology component of things. And here I am working with a wonderful organization that

leaves in psychological safety and creating good workplaces for all their employees. And I think I'm getting close to 30 seconds, so I do apologize. But I'll end the playing and say, I've been in the space. I care a lot about HR practitioners. But more importantly, I care a lot about employees and making sure that everyone can bring their best authentic self to work.

Rhona Pierce (03:05)
Amazing. Tell us a little bit more about your day job at All Voices. Is content creation central to what you do there?

Jeffrey Fermin (03:12)
Yeah. Oh my God. Priorities shift a lot. think, you know, I'm definitely a still a marketing ops nerd and SEO nerd. I love that part of it. I do a lot of the website development as well as just, you know, running the marketing automation services. you know, the content is very near and to me because, you know, one of the reasons I started in HR tech in office five was to really help and benefit people. And that really

entails a lot of communicating with leaders and communicating with employees and understanding how they're feeling right now and what can be done to make offices better. And I love doing that. And that is around like 50, maybe 60 % of my job. I'm currently doing it right now. So like, yeah, I would say it's a mix of content creation and marketing ops. And I really do love the content side of things because there's so many wonderful people in our space.

Rhona Pierce (04:08)
Amazing. So this episode, it's going to be a bit different. You're going to get a behind the scenes look at two creators just talking shop. Neither of us have really figured this out yet. But when I saw your post, I knew we had to talk about this. So let's start there. Let me start by reading the post. And if you're watching on video, you'll also get to see the post. But the post says, so for 2026, I want to talk about things relating to my industry. But I'll be honest.

That's hard to do when the news cycle reminds you every single day that the world feels, how can I put this professionally, pretty fucking awful. I'll try again next week. I absolutely loved that post. What was actually happening for you that day?

Jeffrey Fermin (04:54)
So it's really just been the past two weeks or the past year and a half. I've spoken to lot of folks in the sector about like how to handle like all the negative news going on ⁓ here in the United States specifically and how they've done it with previous just, I guess, people that have held political office and tensions arising. And I felt like the last two weeks were just stressful. And if you guys need a date right now, it's the 16th. So, you know, I won't leave it. I'll leave it up to the imagination to.

figure out what's going on in January 2026. But it's just been such a stressful start to the year. And I had all of these goals and all of these things that I wanted to do and get off my chest this year. I was like, man, I want to hit the ground running this 2026 and talk a lot about HR and how we can make better workplaces for people back to my MO and back to really doing these podcasts where I'm discussing the future of work.

you just turn on the news after a long day of marketing work and talking to people and then it's like, holy shit, dude. I can't relax. I am looking at people get hurt. I'm looking at the discourse. A lot of division. And I don't want to get political and I definitely don't want to paint all voices in any kind of light and skewing any sort of direction. But it definitely hurts me as an individual. And I don't mean like an employee. I mean just like literally as a

person where I'm like looking at people getting hurt, getting beaten down. Like, man, there's no need for this, dude. And quite frankly, it's very hard to just say like, hey, the world's going to be fine. You have to do all these great things in your office and make sure you create a safe space for your employees when you go outside and it's not a safe space outside of your job. And just a real quick story. And I told Emily and my All Voices team this the other day, like we have ICE agents at the park up the street where I go play basketball every day.

And being of Hispanic descent, my ethnicity is Nicaraguan and Dominican. I get scared. I'm an American citizen. I was born here, but, you know, am I going to get stopped going to play basketball every day, which is a very real possibility. If you are someone that kind of looks like me, you get scared. You've probably been like pulled over off of that stuff. Like, you you get scared of these things naturally. And I'm like, I have to live this. I have to look at it in the news. I have to live this. And then I'm like, man, how do I go on here and talk about H.R. on LinkedIn? And I just can't.

because I am tired, I am exhausted, but I do hope for better days ahead.

Rhona Pierce (07:24)
Yeah, ⁓ same. I've had moments like that too, for me, like very recently. So I'm also Hispanic. I don't necessarily present as the typical Hispanic. And I say that quote unquote, because to me, I'm pretty typical if you go to my country, but I'm black. So people here would see me first as a black person, then as a Hispanic person, but I am Afro Latina. ⁓

Recently here where I live, I was out and about at the store and I saw an employee from the store who happens to love my country because he's been there many times. He's also Hispanic and we started speaking Spanish because that's what we do. Well, someone else was bothered by the fact that we were speaking Spanish. To me, that's like such a scary thing. And my husband who's American and I'm a US citizen as well is very scared. Like, maybe you shouldn't be speaking Spanish in public. And I'm like,

can't live this life where I don't like if someone sees me out on the street and speak Spanish, I'm going to reply back in Spanish. I'm not going to be like this ridiculous person who replies back in English just out of fear. But it's the truth. But then it's like that same week, kind of like you, I had thought, I'm going to start out this year. My plan for my content was to audit my brand in public and stuff like that. How do you come back?

home because that's what I was going to do. It's like, I'm going to go to Trader Joe's really quick. I'm going to come back home and shoot some video content. I couldn't. Like, what do you talk about? And I'm just like scared. Like, should I have spoken Spanish? Is anyone following me? All of this. Like, did I put myself on the radar? Like, how do you sit down? And it's like, OK, let me turn on the camera. Hi, this is me auditing my brand in public. Like, really? Hey, have you subscribed? Let's fix that. It's the easiest way to support this show.

Jeffrey Fermin (09:16)
Yeah, it becomes difficult to like live your life and do what we want to do when you are like kind of scared when you're being like chastised for speaking a different language out in the open and in public. Like that is not, dare I say, you know, the American dream was pitched to our parents. You know, we're first, I'm assuming we're first generation US citizens, right? And we're like, especially in my case, you know, my grandparents immigrated from Nicaragua and they're like, man, we have to escape this regime that could gun you down in the street.

at any given moment. And if you have any kind of political differences, I'm like, man, here I am in America and that could happen to me. I'm like, what the heck is going on here? And I now have to go on and present on LinkedIn and say, hey, the workplace, we need to do all these things to ensure that things are gonna be all right for all these employees. Like, no, I'm just as scared and ⁓ just as like terrified as anyone else right now. And it's difficult to try and have conversations around

you the benefits of a positive workplace when there's so much negativity going on in everyday spaces for lack of a better frame. So a phrase. So, yeah, it's it's tough out there. And like, first of all, have to thank you for still bringing it. And, know, your video qualities are so amazing and your guests are so amazing. And like you are crushing it right now. And I understand what you're going through. And not a lot of folks, especially, you know, coming from our backgrounds, you know, like are in this space already. So we're like we're already trying to be positive voices.

But it is tough and I do have to just praise you for still like continuing on and doing your thing.

Rhona Pierce (10:50)
Thank you. I want to talk about you because it's like you were very, very honest in that post after you hit post. Did it feel like relief or did you immediately wonder like if you should have just stayed quiet?

Jeffrey Fermin (11:06)
So I have to give a lot of credit to All Voices. Brian and Emily, my CEO and CRO, they are really good at just letting me just let it fly. Previously at other jobs, there was a sense of like, should I be saying how I feel in my opinions online in a spot like LinkedIn or on threads, which you follow me on there. I'm even more unhinged over there, but that is not very tied into All Voices.

At first, I was always a little bit hesitant because I think about my future, my career. And now I don't even think about any of that. Now I'm just like, hey, this is how I feel at the moment. I'm sure it's going to resonate or it's like, I'm going to miss the mark entirely. I'm willing to hear other opinions that I'm willing to do all this stuff. But once I hit send, that is authentically me. Maybe an AI tweak up to make sure it's grammatically correct and all that stuff.

For most part, was just how I felt. I usually just hit send and then whatever the reaction is, ⁓ three or four hours later, I respond to some comments and say, hey, I was wrong. Hey, I was right. But at the very, the very gist of it, I felt like I just needed to say it. And not that I'm like this big influencer in this space or anything like that, but I interact with a lot of folks that tend to have the same belief systems.

And I just love hearing a little bit of validation saying, Hey, Jeffrey, it is fucking bad out there, dude. I feel that I don't look like you. don't know what your world is like. I don't know, you know, what you go through on your personal day to day, but I feel the same way. And, know, I appreciate you writing this and that's at the end of the day, the only validation I need, at least from like random strangers on the internet, you know, every now and then you'll post something and you'll get like a lot of hate and stuff like that. I'm all right with that. And I'm willing to just take that risk.

But it's something that I just felt like I needed to say and I'm glad that I do it and I just I'm even happier with the responses ⁓ from some of the wonderful people in our space.

Rhona Pierce (13:14)
So we've had in the past couple of years, lot of, how should I call it? Bullshit happen, but just everywhere. And here's what I wrestle with. I feel like if I've built any kind of audience, they expect me to say something. But then I wonder if that's just ego. Like, you ever feel that pull?

Jeffrey Fermin (13:38)
Are you saying just specifically to maybe some of the things that are happening right now? Okay,

Rhona Pierce (13:43)
Yeah, I'd to say something about it.

Jeffrey Fermin (13:45)
I don't necessarily feel that. I've never felt the pressure, but I do always make it a point to say like, I have to say something. You know, before it's kind of like, I didn't want to be seen as a token Hispanic guy that's going to say all these things. And yeah, I'll make a meme or I'll put like a funny bad bunny thing every now and then just to show that I'm like still culturally, you know, I still have some, you know, like I still, I still do all these things. I go to, you know, no chip went on. I have the.

roasted pig and half cupin' coffee and everyone tells me I'm crazy for having that much sugar. But, at the very just of it, I now feel like I have to say things because who else is gonna do it, right? Like, someone needs to step up, I'm not, and I wanna just kind of keep on saying I'm not a influencer for Hispanic people, I'm not perfect by any means, but if someone's out there saying it they look and sound and feel like you,

It just kind of has that little sense of like, dude, I get it. And I feel validated in reading this. And I hope like whenever I write these things, is some, you know, somebody like Jeffrey that's kind of like looking at that and saying like, damn, dude, I fucking feel it, man. When I get off at five o' five and I put the news on the radio in the car or podcast, I'm seeing the worst possible things happen. And it's affecting people that look like me and it sucks, dude.

You know, just writing it and putting it out there and getting these responses. I love it. And yeah, I don't mind doing it. And if there's any type of expectations to be a certain way, I'm probably not going to meet it. I'm not the best person, but I am going to still write about it from here on out. And I do feel it's a responsibility.

Rhona Pierce (15:25)
Amazing. There's this fear of being performative. am I adding something real or am I just adding to the noise or am I just like being negative and just like playing into it? And is this even my lane? How do you gut check that?

Jeffrey Fermin (15:43)
I take a step back. I really do. It's the new age of the internet, right? Where everything feels performative. Everything could be perceived as performative. You write something and it could be seen as like trying to toot your own horn and say like, I'm the best and I am a, I'm a thought leader in this space and I know so much. I've already said it five times in this call. I'm not the right person for it. It's just how I feel.

And it's not any sense of like me, there's no PR pushes. There's no Emily betting things or someone at All Voices betting things. It's complete separation of church and state. Funny enough, the US doesn't have anymore, but that's another topic. ⁓ Separation of church and state there. Jeffrey does his own thing over here. And I just kind of like speak from my heart, which a lot of folks should be doing. And we should be using ⁓ these channels, LinkedIn, threads.

Instagram, whatever, like we should be using them to kind of see how we feel and see like there's any validation to our feelings to kind of say like, hey, I kind of feel like this is this right? Like, yeah, and that's that's pretty much the gist of it. And like I said, a lot of folks in our sector do it way better than me. And I don't necessarily think they're performative at all. I think that's how they feel. And they're crushing it. And I can't help but praise everyone around us as well.

Rhona Pierce (17:02)
Yeah, there's so many people who are so, I call it brave and just say what they need to say and use their privilege and their voice to say, to bring attention and call attention and like not be quiet. It's, I love it. ⁓ When you're doom scrolling and your creative energy is at zero, what do you actually do?

Jeffrey Fermin (17:30)
is arguably one of the toughest questions that you've thrown at me. Man, creative energy. I reset my Instagram feeds. No, there's the option to reset your Instagram feed. I love that. That's my little hack to get more creative and getting back to the things that I actually like, know, photography, ⁓ travel, design.

These are things as a marketer, content creator, and just an overall creative that I enjoy doing. whenever... It's funny enough, these suggestions or what is it? Knowledge-based algorithms, they tailor topics based on what you like. It's a product of my own wrongdoings to myself to want to continually see these bad things. And then when I see too much of it, I'm just like, dude, take a step back. This isn't who I am.

This is a reflection of what's going on in the world. And I've reacted to it a certain way, reset all the out-goes and move forward and just kind of see what you really like. And that's how I've been able to get like a lot of my favorite ⁓ workforce creators back on top of my feeds that I'm engaging with them and finding more people. you know, seeing this cool new class of creators in our space that are doing a lot more comedy. I've mentioned Maureen several times. Wow, she's great at the TikTok bits, ⁓ you know.

Christy, Christy Hoppichee's awesome at it. Like I'm seeing all these folks that are now coming up as like comedy creators in the workplace and they're doing fantastic things. And that's what I want to see more of. But sadly, every now and then these bad stories creep up. So ⁓ yeah, I guess the yin and yang of things.

Rhona Pierce (19:12)
I love that. And I think I call it ⁓ activating my echo chamber. I go to TikTok and I search for something specifically. Like, I don't know. So it's like, you know what? I'm tired of this new stuff. Let me go search for funny or whatever or real housewives of this and stuff like that. And you know, as soon as you start searching for it, then the algorithm gives it to you forever and ever, at least for that session.

And that's what I do. I'm like, let me go activate my echo chamber. just want to be like in this little, I want to forget about everything else in the world and just let's today we're binging. don't know whatever Netflix show I'm watching.

Jeffrey Fermin (19:55)
The weirdest, I guess, pivot right now is going to be just like, I've gotten really into cooking these last couple months. So whenever I feel myself getting too much into the news, I'm like, all right, knife sharpening skills, how to like, you know, barbecue things properly, you know, making the best Nicaraguan food. I'd like, I can make some killer gallo pinto en canesada. My wife knows this, she loves it. Yeah, I'm not good for our diets, but I'm learning how to make stuff. And that's really where I put a lot of my creative energies now.

And hopefully at the next like HR conference, maybe I'll like bring some stuff and just cook for everybody. Bring a little styrofoam joints. I'm talking about? ⁓

Rhona Pierce (20:31)
I that. I like that. I'm in my, I'm in my Chinese food era because that's what's happening on TikTok. Everyone's doing it. I'm like making these amazing foods and it's funny. I was telling my husband, I, one of my roommates, when I was working in Mexico, she's Chinese and she would cook all of these things. I would never eat them. I'm like, I could have learned all of these things back then, but like cooking was our, like she used to cook at that point in life. I didn't.

So I was like, okay, good luck cooking. would go do something else. But now I'm like, all I do cook every day, bunch of food that I can't even pronounce the name, but it's delicious. ⁓

Jeffrey Fermin (21:12)
I got two things I have to mention and I'm going to do my best to find like the Instagram accounts. ⁓ The first one is the Venezuelan Chinese kid that goes around in New York and sells ⁓ the Venezuelan Chinese fried rice from the back of his car. I have you seen that? He's like, it's a big plastic bin. He served them off. He sells them for like twenty dollars and he has a line that goes, you know, spans around two blocks and he sells out every single day and he's now

opening a restaurant in Spain. That's one of my new like favorite people in the world because he has, you know, it's funny just seeing like the Venezuelan accent with someone like that. And I think it's over here in Florida. There is a Dominican sushi person, a sushi chef, and he is making like Dominican style sushi rolls. So he has like the little platanos, salamis, and then the thing. It's awesome. So that's where I go. Please, people, if you're watching this, go follow those two. I don't know their ads. Just put like

Dominican sushi person or Venezuelan Chinese person. It's awesome.

Rhona Pierce (22:16)
I'll find those and add them to the show notes because they seem exciting. I want to go watch them. going back a little to our topic, do you have any kind of filter that you've run things through before posting about something heavy?

Jeffrey Fermin (22:33)
⁓ I typically just pump the brakes and reread it two or three times. And I think about how this would be perceived if I were truly a centrist person and say like, okay, let me try and meet in the middle. How could this be perceived in someone that has a completely different political ideology, different ⁓ ways of viewing society, maybe they're rich, they're poor. And I put my marketing hat on every time I write. That's why it takes that one post that's probably

maybe two or three paragraphs or in small sentences, it probably took me 30 or 40 minutes. You know, I have, come up with the initial concept and then I start thinking like, okay, how is this going to affect people from different walks of life? And they aren't necessarily, you know, they don't, might've not had the same upbringing as me. What if they've had every single means to them? What if they're a senior director or C level person? What if they're entry level? All these different little matrix of data and information, I take it all into account.

And I know that sounds way more complex than it is, but I just try and put myself in other people's shoes and see how it can be perceived. Am I just another entitled bro on the internet that's just spewing nonsense and just trying to seem to your point performative? You know, could it be done this way? And then I, last little thing I do is just kind of tailor it to be more like me and the way I would speak. And that's really all this content creation stuff is, right? We are putting our thoughts and

you know, making sure that we can protect them from like a lot of critiques and criticism. And, you know, we're protecting our thoughts. We're throwing in that layer. We're pushing, we're pushing it out there and hoping that people are going to interact and kind of meet you in the middle and understand what you're trying to say and where you're coming from. There are some times that I haven't done that and I've had to apologize and I've had to be like, wow, that's really dumb. Let me edit this post. But, for the most part, that's typically my process with writing any post. And, ⁓ I put a lot of thought.

to just about any of them.

Rhona Pierce (24:32)
I love this look into it because people might see two to three lines and think, ah, that doesn't take any time. sometimes it does. Yeah, I know. Sometimes you write a post and it's just like, oh, whatever, five seconds. And it does great. And sometimes you like, when you're really thinking of the message, even if it's short, you have to, it takes some time and 30 to...

40 minutes doesn't seem like a ton of time, but it is when you're really thinking and looking at it from all angles. So I love that you do that, that you are a marketer and still are thinking about your entire audience, not just your feelings. Has there ever been content that you created during a chaotic moment that you're proud of?

Jeffrey Fermin (25:20)
Hmm. Goodness. I mean, there's been so many chaotic moments in the last year and a half. It's just it's very hard to narrow it down and say like, my God, this is the one thing I just love it whenever I'm able to, you know, have a criticism of an institution that might be doing something wrong. And I don't get any pushback. I think that's always the best. I'll actively I'll stand on the Hill.

with a lot of my friends in the HR or work ⁓ tech space and say like, Sherm is not doing a good job right now. And I really just love the fact that when I like kind of got mad at the fact that they brought in someone to speak that I don't necessarily have the same agreements with or ⁓ use as, it's, I found it to be very diminishing towards like, or demeaning towards large groups of people. You know, I put something out there. said, Hey, Sherm, this is bad on you.

I might've wrote a lot of mean things. Maybe I didn't vet it out properly or didn't like do all these edits I did. For the most part, the HR community had my back and ⁓ you know, I'm not the guy, I'm not a hero, I'm not a role model, but I am so happy that a lot of folks were like, you know what? What Shurm's doing is wrong and yes, ⁓ I stand with Jeffrey and I kind of like support this. And to be fair, a lot of folks were against it too and.

And you name it. I think, you know, for the folks that have been following around HR media, if that's what you want to call it now, or work media, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Big keynote conference last year and who they brought on. But reality is like a lot of folks that are influential in the space did not agree with that. And I just felt happy that like, you know, I was there, I say one of the earlier people discussing it and everyone for the most part, just kind of like had my back on that one. So I'm always proud whenever

there's an institution doing something wrong and everyone's kind of like, yeah, dude, that's fucked up. We need to like kind of team up and call them out and look at them now. They've gone through kind of a lot of controversy this past year. And I don't want to ever say like, hey, man, I hope that organization fails, but I do hope they turn it around and start getting back to what they were meant to do, which is kind of like help workplaces prosper.

Rhona Pierce (27:41)
Yeah, ⁓

Jeffrey Fermin (27:43)
Not media trained at all, by the way. I apologize if I went out of line.

Rhona Pierce (27:47)
No, no, no, no. I'm just trying to think how to say this. It's like, sherm is a, like, I'm not big on certifications and stuff like that. So I was never like, my gosh, sherm, blah, blah. But this past year, I had the opportunity to go and create content at their national conference in San Diego. And it was something where some people were like, I can't believe you're doing that. And I was like, well, I didn't.

work for Sherm, went with a specific brand that I 100 % believe in what they're doing. they that's where and it was interesting being at Sherm and walking around as a black girl. Lots of other black women would come up to me and be like, Hi, just and I would ask them like, Hey, how come you're here? And they're like, this is the only conference that my company allows me and pays me to go to.

Jeffrey Fermin (28:41)
Can I do a hot take right now? Yes. Why is that? And what does the leadership look like at those companies?

Rhona Pierce (28:48)
I know exactly. And they were also there wrestling with the like, my gosh, I'm here. This is so bad. We don't believe in this, but this is what my company sends me to go. It's either come here or don't go anywhere. And how do I keep up with my certification? All of that. it's like, it was interesting conversations. And it's just like, this is an organization that has such respect from

Unfortunately, the majority of people in leadership, because they don't necessarily feel things ⁓ the way we do, because it's not impacting them, I just really hope that they turn it around. I don't want to see SHRM destroyed like some people do. I really want them to turn it around because they have this respect. And it's like, you don't want to feel icky while being at a conference.

Jeffrey Fermin (29:40)
Yeah, and by the way, I have to give you some more flowers. I saw that post that you did where like, like where you got invited to some of these things or you were mentioning like all the things that you have done the past year and all the places you got invited to. I saw that was one of them. I didn't judge. I knew the exactly the situation because, you know, we've all had to probably do stuff like that where we're like, all right, well, you know, there's a company kind of like allowing me to be here. I'm going to do my best contract for my thing. So no judgment there.

I will say you crushed it this past year. I'm giving you way too many flowers. I promise this was not organized. You did great. I saw that post. was like, hell yeah. That's how I can only hope ⁓ there's a lot more creators in the space that kind of have those similar type of successes that you had this past year and able to travel and do your thing. ⁓ Just want to like kind of like finish up on the Sherm note. I do think they'll get better because that's typically the ebbs and flows of how things go.

I've been in this HR tech space now, it's only 14 years. I'm not definitely not an elder statesman by any means. It's still very young and energetic and I bring it to work every day. But I will say what I've noticed is there's trends. There's always like, you know, one, one, I say extreme, but the pendulum always swings, right? Where, Hey, right now leadership looks a certain way. There's been a lot of backlash and a lot of folks that are disagreeing with us. Probably going to try and over-correct and try and meet somewhere in the middle with their future.

⁓ practitioners and even companies that they work with. And hopefully it comes sooner rather than later because all eyes are on them. They are an institution here.

Rhona Pierce (31:14)
So yes, I think we both agree on that. So you create for a brand, I create for my own brand. Does that change how much freedom you feel to go there and just be outspoken about things like Shurm?

Jeffrey Fermin (31:34)
First, I was petrified. At first, I was like, man, should I be talking about this? it's not... Once again, the company that I work for is All Voices. They pride themselves on having a wide array of opinions just within the company, within our users, all that stuff. We want everyone's voice to be heard and understood. And that's pretty much the core ethos of the product and our missions and our values and understanding. We all have to work with one another.

At first, I was like, ⁓ are they being sincere as an organization to allow someone to potentially be outspoken on the Internet? What happens if there's something that I would always get scared of, especially since we kind of work the algorithm a little bit to have a couple of viral posts every now and then. Could that ruin a potential relationship with a customer, with a paying customer, with a potential customer? customers are number one for all voices. Not trying to be corny at all.

That's where my mind was gravitating towards. I think going back to that separation of church and state comment, they understand that like Jeffrey is going to talk over here. And I had my own little mini brand before that. And I was doing that at office vibe. And I had amassed a decent following previously in this sector. I stopped because I was trying to like avoid any of this stuff. But then they were kind of like, hey, you know what? You know, you're pretty good at this.

writing public opinions and stuff like that. Like, all right, cool. I'll do it every now and then. And then once I started seeing my numbers go up, like, all right, what are the, what are the guardrails? What are the parameters we're going to set to make this work? And that's exactly what I did. I just kind of wrote and I initially, I would just kind of say like, Hey, is this okay? Like, yeah, yeah, just go. If it gets real bad, we can always delete it. And yeah, whatever. They let me do my thing and they understand that Jeffrey is his own person and I don't.

require any sign off to say certain things. I was scared to curse on LinkedIn. Now I do it freely and I do it on podcasts. Once again, sorry, mom. But yeah, like now it's just a free game and free reign and they let me do whatever I want. ⁓ My only thing is we just don't disrespect any specific individuals, obviously any groups. And that stems still just like me and who I am. Yeah, we I do my best to avoid generalizations and ⁓

That's pretty much it. No absolutes, no generalizations, no attacking people and try and keep it factual. Even when you have opinions, you try and like relate it to a fact. So yeah.

Rhona Pierce (34:11)
Amazing. love that. ⁓ For creators earlier in their journey feeling this weight, what would you tell them?

Jeffrey Fermin (34:19)
to go I have to do story time. Okay, so when I lived in New York, I would often go to creative roundups. And ⁓ the first one I went to was around how people were feeling in 2016. And for those that weren't around in New York in 2016, it was a beautiful place. But just know after you know, someone got elected, it was not a beautiful it was a very stressful place to be at.

So I went to a creative community and we had a whole discussion around what it means to be a creative during times when it feels uncertain. yeah, it was just really letting it all, like putting it all out there when times feel like this, because this is when you kind of need to double down, right? Whenever there's this like downturn, society's not feeling right. And I'll let you...

to come up with your own definition of that. I don't want to get into specifics there. But when things are feeling right, that's really the time to create. When things are challenging and times are tough, that's the time when you need to go to the drawing board and come up with some of your best work and put it out there. that to me, I still like remember that one thing I went to when I went to that conference and I kind of you know, grasp that from, you know, these wonderful creative artists that thought their rights were going to get taken away from

specifically female, gay, LGBTQ ⁓ community, these type of artists that were really feeling threatened by a divisive messaging at the time, which now it's kind of amplified and it's now becoming the norm, sadly. Sorry for getting political, ⁓ but yes, I would say people need to hear your voices and understand that they're similar to what I said earlier. Things aren't feeling okay right now and it's good to provide.

warmth and use your creativity to say like, hey, I'm not feeling this way too. Let's stick together. Let's ride this thing out together. Let's, you know, let's become allies and hold hands and say like, dude, like we can stop. can end a lot of the hate towards our communities. And yeah, I mean, I'm very thankful for my time in New York because I got to see people like that. And, you know, now like I live in kind of a silo where it might not necessarily feel that way all the time, but

I do love seeing the other creative communities coming together.

Rhona Pierce (36:40)
I've asked a ton of questions. Do you have any questions for me?

Jeffrey Fermin (36:44)
I am curious to hear, going back to that grocery store story, how do I phrase it? I understand that, I get that. how do you kind of bring that up to somebody? If you're at a workplace when you're like, I felt uncomfortable and I currently feel uncomfortable because whenever I go out and I am just being my natural, authentic self.

and I am speaking a language that I know and this is a country where it's the second most spoken language out here. Am I a threat right now? am I, ⁓ one, am I perceived a threat and two, am I in danger? How do you handle that and go about your business?

Rhona Pierce (37:30)
I remember thinking, I'm so glad I don't work at an office right now because the last time I worked at an office here in the state where I live, the state of Oklahoma, was in 2016. And ⁓ I'm sure the day after the election was very different here than it was anywhere else. ⁓

⁓ I'm just glad I'm not working at an office because I'll say the story. I'll be open. The day after the election in 2016, most of the country was gutted and most of the country was like, my gosh. I went to an office where they handed me celebration donuts. And I wanted to grab those donuts and like in my brain, I

grab those donuts, I threw them in everyone's face. But what I actually did is I just, I was like, I don't eat donuts, even though they've seen me eat. I had been there for three years. They knew I ate donuts. It's like, I don't eat donuts. And I went and I closed the door to my office. And that was the one day as a manager, I was a director at that time that I was like no open door policy. I can't hold space for anyone else. And looking back, I should have been able to, because I'm sure there was other people that felt the same way that I did.

But like I had to take a selfish moment and just be all about me. And I think if I were working at an office here right now, I would probably just shut down and not feel safe to talk, not because there's no one else feeling the same way I do. I'm sure there are, but you just, you just never know. I would just, I would unfortunately just shut down.

Jeffrey Fermin (39:27)
And that should not be the norm for a lot of people. the real sad part is, there's probably thousands of people that feel just like that right now. They're working in an office, they're in a place where they might be the only person in the room, right? And you don't feel safe because everyone around you, just kind of like, they have that difference.

I'm trying to be very PC right now and say they have that difference. They're kind of saying like, oh, know, everything's so all right and golly. But then like once you leave the workspace, like that's it. Like, you know, you kind of feel scared. You get guarded like like me going to play basketball like shit, dude. Like, could today be the day like that? Something bad happens. Do I need to keep my wallet on me as I'm playing basketball because somebody is going to come ask for something like these are experiences that not a lot of folks have over here.

And it's like what the part that shocks me the most is whenever you try and explain somebody like somebody that might not necessarily look like you all these things, you're like, no, but that doesn't happen. Stop like, no, do not diminish these experiences. It is happening. It's happening and it's how I feel. And it is awful. it's, know, thousands of people around the millions of people around the country feel that way. And for anyone to dismiss something and dismiss how anyone like like us, how we're feeling, it's wrong.

Yeah, that's

Rhona Pierce (40:56)
No, I 100 % agree. It's wrong. It's not how it should be. But yes, and I've had that experience too. If you try to explain something to someone, how you're feeling or whatever, it's always like, no, that's not happening. come on. That's an edge case. that hardly ever happens. That's just the news trying to control you. like, it's literally happening right now. You're doing it right now. But yeah.

Jeffrey Fermin (41:22)
I

of stories, me getting, you know, me getting followed to my car, me being, know, the day I got acquired, this is, yeah, I'm sure Christie, I'm not even gonna, let me not name drop, but the day I got acquired, office five gets acquired, the person that acquires us literally goes up to me is like, hey, I now own you Mexican. I'm like, what the fuck is exactly, you know, first of all, it's kind of like,

Dude, I'm Hispanic. There's more than, you know, Central America and the Hispaniolas, you know, all this stuff. But like for you to say that to me and a 20 year old, 22 year old person, you just acquired me and I'm giving you all my like intellectual property and I'm going to work for you for the time being. Like as a kid, like I just saw it as like like a pun, like this guy's serious. But like, no, there's people that have that deep rooted mentality to say like, hey, I now purchase this thing I own to my life. It fucking blew my mind and.

This is the stuff that I've had to deal with. Whatever I tell people is like, no, it's not that bad. dude, there's some shady stuff in this world. And sometimes it gets brought to the office and people do not feel safe at work. And more importantly, like me, I do not feel safe when I go do some things with my wife. And it's a scary time right now. And all you can do is just pray for.

If want to pray to the universe, whoever you want to pray to pray for better days ahead, because there's people that are going to try and fight and try and do the right things that will hopefully turn this ship around. Because, man, things are rough out there, whether you want to believe it or not. Things are rough out there for all people, shapes, colors, all that stuff.

Rhona Pierce (43:03)
Yes. And I've loved having this conversation with you. It's something that's needed. It's something that is real. And I just love how we've both been able to share and hopefully people listening get insight into the things that we deal with. ⁓ And I hope, I really hope for all the HR and TA people listening that you can

Keep this in mind and understand that some people are shutting down not because they have nothing to say, but because they just don't feel safe enough. And what can you do to make it feel safe for someone not to have to shut down as a way of preserving? But I want to end on a lighter note. It's time to air your most petty content creation grievances in a segment I like to call, Let's Sweat the Small Stuff.

We're focusing on the tiny things that shouldn't matter, but today we're giving them the spotlight they absolutely deserve. Are you ready?

Jeffrey Fermin (44:08)
I'll do my best to be ready.

Rhona Pierce (44:10)
All right, what's a post format that makes you irrationally annoyed every time you see it?

Jeffrey Fermin (44:17)
⁓ God, I'm going to have to edit like 10 seconds of me thinking. ⁓

Man, I hate ⁓ model type selfies. really don't know, look, I understand the way how things are in the world, this and that. I get it. We live in a very Instagram-y type of world and LinkedIn is slowly turning into Instagram and we're putting a lot of ourselves out there. But I don't like the posts that are like, you know, it could be a man, woman, the works.

someone out there just kind of showing off that they're living like a luxurious style and then just giving like maybe tips on how to manage an office. You're in a hotel in Abu Dhabi like what are you doing right now? Like, you know, I don't like the flashy posts followed by the like thought leadership content that you could tell is mostly AI generated. And it's like, Hey, yeah, you know, in order to be the best, you know, you got to follow your passions all love, manage your employees, them chase their passion to do that. And it's like somebody in like Abu Dhabi, I don't know.

I hate those type of posts. That's just my two cents. I could be wrong. I see a lot of engagement. I'm pretty sure it's bought. I'll let the LinkedIn public determine if those are good or not. It's not my cup of tea.

Rhona Pierce (45:36)
Love it. What's a completely harmless LinkedIn notification that instantly irritates you?

Jeffrey Fermin (45:43)
The ones that are like, ⁓ man, this person's been at a company for seven years. I'm like, man, I don't need this. This doesn't help me. ⁓ You can't even have a notification to like it or do anything from there. It just exists. And I'm just like, all right, what can I do with this except delete it?

Rhona Pierce (46:02)
Alright, what's the type of comment on your post that low-key annoys you even though it's nice?

Jeffrey Fermin (46:10)
The ones that you can tell are clearly like AI scripts that you could see like, you know, ⁓ get one point and ask a question of this post. And like you see them, you're like, come on, man, this is clearly like AI generated unless you have like a three paragraph statement around workdays by a system like.

Rhona Pierce (46:34)
same. What's something you used to do as a creator that now drives you crazy when you see others doing it?

Jeffrey Fermin (46:45)
I really just, first of all, I have to note that whenever I like see any of my previous posts, I just like instantly cringe. So if anyone's doing something that I was doing months ago, by all means, like, I'm glad for you. hope I inspired you, but man, please stop it. Cause I don't even like my own post from six months ago. Yeah. I don't know. I think just, I found it tough to crack like the carousel type posts, especially the ones that have like inspirational visuals or like

case studies or like use cases of your work. They never worked for me, but whenever I'll be petty, whenever I see it taking off for someone else and they do something similar, I'm like, oh man, you're such an asshole, dude. That was my thing. And you stole it from me and you got better engagement. So the petty person in me doesn't like it when they beat me at my own game.

Rhona Pierce (47:35)
I love that. So real, so true. All right, I've enjoyed this conversation. Where can listeners connect with you?

Jeffrey Fermin (47:43)
Sure, you can find me on Instagram at Furman Talks Work on threads too, but there I'm very unhinged. So be ready for raw, just gritty, ridiculousness and ⁓ not affiliated with all voices at all. I just talk nonsense on there. ⁓ And yeah, obviously LinkedIn, Jeffrey Furman. I am going to start pronouncing it with a Spanish accent. So Jeffrey Fedming, a little acento. I love that. So yeah, follow me on LinkedIn. Let's be friends.

Rhona Pierce (48:12)
And I was actually going to ask you if you say Furmin or Firmin. So I should have asked. I love that. ⁓ Thank you so much for being on the show.

Jeffrey Fermin (48:21)
Thank you so much, this was a blast.

Rhona Pierce (48:24)
If you're enjoying the Workfluencer pod, share it with someone who's changing how we talk about work or who should be. And hey, if this episode gave you ideas or inspiration, leave us a five-star review. Reviews help other listeners find us. And honestly, it makes my day. This show is produced by Workfluencer Media. Visit workfluencermedia.com to learn how we help companies build video-first content systems that attract, engage, and retain qualified talent.

That's WorkfluencerMedia.com. Thanks for listening and I'll chat with you next week.