How to Pay Employee Content Creators Fairly with Cynthia Abbott-Kerr

Rhona Pierce (00:00.13)
Can someone be a W-2 employee and a 1099 contractor at the same time?

not for the same company. You would need two separate lines of compensation because you can't be two classifications as one person in a company.

But that's also as someone who is a creator and you're doing this, that's where the upfront conversation and having the guidelines comes in. Because I know for one, and people who are buying this are always asking you, what are the usage rights?

Great, it's common in the marketplace. So you're not trying to teach people something new, especially when it comes to commission plans. It's the employees are confused about how their commission is calculated.

Your employees are probably your best content creators. They know your products, they know your customers and their content. feels real in a way most influencer partnerships just don't. But here's the part most haven't figured out yet. How do you actually pay them fairly? Do you tack it onto their hourly rate, pay per post, build a commission structure? That's where Cynthia Abbott Kerr comes in.

Rhona Pierce (01:11.022)
She's built these systems and today we're digging into what fair compensation really looks like when your employees become your creators. Cynthia, welcome to Workfluencer.

Thank you for having me.

So for those listeners who aren't familiar with you, can you share who you are and what you do best?

Certainly. So my specialty is building out compensation programs and strategies for companies. So that would look like building commission programs for Saks Fifth Avenue or building equity plans for Omada Health or building out a pay band structure for Exowat. So my specialty in the human resources function has been

building pay programs and strategies that align to the needs of the business and also incent the behaviors of the individuals that are employed by that business.

Rhona Pierce (02:10.006)
And now you run, you founded your own company that's all about compensation. Can you tell us a little bit about WellPay?

Yeah, absolutely. So WellPay is an AI company that services businesses and helps them align and design their pay strategies. And what that means in a nutshell is I can take all of your disparate data, your employee data, your survey data, your sales plans, your equity grants, and I can work with WellPay AI and bring it all together in a way that makes sense in a very short amount

That's amazing. So let's start with a question like everyone's dodging, right? When you have employees that create content for your brand, should you pay them?

think yes. And I've actually had time to kind of noodle on this since you and I were sending some messages about it. I think yes, you should pay them. And I think it should be a really clear commission structure. Now, what's going to be difficult is it's going to be difficult to assign attainment. So I live in Las Vegas. I could see an ad for, you know, that an influencer, let's say someone that works at Ulta posts about this lipstick. And I say, man.

I really want to go buy this lipstick. However, I may be buying it at store in Las Vegas when it was a content creator that posted this in Seattle, Washington. So I think the best approach would actually be to tie the commission structure to the outcomes of the store. So as the store exceeds profits, the individuals in that location are also receiving some of the award.

Cynthia Abbott-Kerr (03:52.002)
because it's gonna be hard to say, well, you saw this in California, but you bought it in Las Vegas, but how do we attain that back? Our systems aren't designed for that level of complexity yet, and neither are businesses, right? Like they have a SKU number, but they don't know that it's assigned to you in Las Vegas and a different one to you in Seattle. It's just the SKU number for the lipstick, right?

Because the internet is so global. And what if your store isn't doing good, but you're killing it out there on social media and happened to be seen by everyone in Las Vegas when you are at the store, I don't know, right up the street here in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where maybe there's not that much lipstick being sold. How do you reconcile that? Because then if if I'm being

yeah.

Rhona Pierce (04:38.306)
compensated based on what my store's doing, but I'm killing it online and driving traffic to other stores. Should it be a mix? Like, should I get paid per post and then commission or how should that?

You know, that's a really smart question. And I think there could also be another strategy. Because to your point around, say, someone in Oklahoma is doing incredible content, but there's just not the volume because maybe that's not the market. I think a company could, yes, reward for post and also explore affiliate links. Right? So maybe I just want to buy that lipstick directly from your TikTok shop. I don't need to go in to the store unless I need to return it.

Maybe it wasn't the right shade for me, it was too orange, I need more of red blue, and so I'm going to take it back. But I think a way to move through that would be to have an affiliate link, because it's really clear. You bought it on the website, it's sold, it's easy to capture. I do think there is an integrity piece here, and that if you have employees creating content for your company and your brand, there needs to be some level of compensation.

This is their time, this is their effort, and also their audience that they are creating. I think it's a very smart move because for a number of years, it was always no phones at work, don't have your phone out, and it kind of defeats the purpose, right? Because if we go back, like when you and I were growing up, what cool it placed to be in the 90s for makeup was Mac.

The makeup artists at the Mac counter, were close to rock star status. They were cool, they were edgy, they had all the fun makeup combos, and they were effectively selling it based on wearing it themselves. And that's really what social media is, is saying like, hey, this is how I look and how this looks on me, it could look good on you. Why not take advantage of that? Now, there's also gonna need to be policy around that, and that if you're posting on behalf of the company,

Cynthia Abbott-Kerr (06:38.542)
You obviously can't post anything derogatory. But as far as compensation, I think let's explore the spaces, right? Is it a combination of you're rewarded on store performance? Like, is there a company component and an individual component? So to your point, maybe your store isn't doing amazing, but you are with the posting and with the affiliate link. So you're making commission there. And then if your store starts to increase in volume and sales, you then get rewarded there.

I like that. like that. Be honest. You're probably coming back next week anyway. Make it official. Like and subscribe. It helps other people find workfluencer and it gives me one more reason to keep doing this. So you've actually done this. This is not hypothetical, but conversation, which is why I'm excited to have you here. You've built commission structures for employee creators before. Can you walk us through like what that looked like in practice?

The map out of what you want the program to be is actually relatively simple. We want to hit X target. We have Z locations. We have this amount of employees selling across these locations. Where it becomes complicated is actually the tracking and attainment of those dollars. So I think when we design

you know, reward systems and programs. It's easy to think of it from the space of, here's the program. I think the bigger lift and what I do in a lot of my business is to say, all right, once this is in place or even before it's in place, how are we going to make sure everyone is getting the proper allocation? Because there's nothing that's more disheartening and just, you know, it just really breaks a lot of people's spirits when they feel like they're constantly having to fight and negotiate for the commission.

when they're calculating something completely different than, let's say, the finance or operations team. And it's like, this isn't the spirit of what we were trying to do here. So on one side, it's here's our strategy. Here's the program we're going to deploy. Then it's how do we calculate it and ensure that everyone is doing it the same way? Because you have to have consistency in your information and how it rolls back up through finance and the business. And also, do your employees understand how they're going to be paid?

Cynthia Abbott-Kerr (08:57.23)
Do they understand that if they sell this $25 lipstick, that commission is going to be, let's say, 5%. And then if they sell this $700 beauty system, let's say that commission is 15%. And do they understand that there's different levels of commission depending on products that are sold? Because I think it's easy to plan. It's harder to communicate and be consistent. And that's really where I try to work with leaders. And it's communication.

through our actions and our systems and also consistency.

I believe you built this commission for creators when you were at Saks, right? Did you have any pushback or like any that came internally? Can you tell us about that?

Yes, well, there's always this, think, kind of in America, we've been going through iterations and phases of what employment looks like for every generation. And the boomer generation had very much a top down, my boss tells me what to do interaction with either employees or their employer, depending on where they set. And it also, in Fana, you know, it

created a lot of kind of infantile structures in companies. So when we're being more progressive and even, you know, we're used to it now in 2025, but the concept of, hey, this is how you're paid and this is how we're putting it together can still be a big change management moment for a lot of companies, especially a company as storied as Saks. So a lot of the pushback

Cynthia Abbott-Kerr (10:43.438)
was around, what happens if we need to make changes? We're communicating this program. What if we need to be more agile? You know, this kind of fear of, we oversharing? And where we landed with finance, the business leaders, and, you know, the HR leadership was the business always reserves the right to make a change depending on business outcomes. That's going to be in every commission statement program.

ever.

Everywhere, yeah.

but that we're not doing ourself any service. We're not motivating or incenting these behaviors. If we want people to go out and sell, we need to tell them what they can be rewarded if they sell. And then if we want to couple that and say, hey, if you create content that's a benefit to us and yourself, here's what that could be. That being in this murky space,

doesn't reward anybody. doesn't make anybody want to go out and sell more because it could be that one extra video you made about that one lipstick that you tried using lipstick as a reference point. It's because I'm lipstick person. Or it could be that one eyeliner you tried that just came in and you said, hey, I'm going to throw this on and show you what this quick eye combo looks like that can go viral.

Cynthia Abbott-Kerr (12:09.4)
Cloudiness and confusion doesn't incent behaviors. And I think when we're talking about commission strategies, whether it's for content creators or individuals who are in a selling relationship to their company, clarity is kindness. Clarity is here, we understand what we need to do to make X happen. And so that's still some of the pushback I get in my business is like, well, how much of this do we want to share?

Let's share it. And also when you share it, also understand what people are understanding, right? When you put it out to your workforce, you get to see how they're digesting it. Because if they're not digesting it in the way you intended it, maybe your message in your program are confusing.

team be as clear as possible with everything but definitely with money when it comes to money like I'm the type of employee that I don't even participate in bonus or I don't even try to get to the bonus and stuff like that because I I call it bonus math it's like I don't even know what's happening so if you work at a place that's explaining things to you clearly I think it also helps with adoption and with people being interested in doing it because it's not going to be this murky like

whatever is happening there, commission math, that all of a sudden it's like, well, I may or may not get something type of thing. And I know this kind of comp design is a big part of what you do now at WellPay. What kinds of companies are coming to you with asking for help with this type of thing and what problems are they trying to solve?

The companies that are coming our way are a variety of industry and sector. Everything from manufacturing to biotech to pharmaceutical to beauty to retail to healthcare. Very fortunate that we're very industry agnostic. I think the core of what companies are trying to solve is really a triangle.

Cynthia Abbott-Kerr (14:11.054)
How do I incent my workforce to maximize productivity? How do I make sure I'm cost aligned to my bottom line, the shareholders, et cetera? And then how do I make sure that I'm close enough to the market to be competitive but not over? That that's where the three sides of the triangle set. And depending on market conditions,

any one side of that triangle can be bigger or smaller depending on where we are in the state of the economy. But I think it really comes back to how do I design this to where it incents behaviors and also is aligned to the goals, the strategy, and the mission of the company.

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Rhona Pierce (15:43.506)
I want to go back to what you were talking about, like attribution really is the challenge when it comes to the commission based structure, right? Is there a minimum viable system that companies need to have in place before they even think about launching one of these programs?

So I would actually take a more simplistic approach and I would say, we're gonna pick on Ulta for a minute just because they're our massive beauty retailer, their products. If I were Ulta, I would say we're gonna start selling on TikTok shop. And I would make it to where my associates could be affiliates. So there's no must, there's no fuss. You've got these affiliate links in your TikTok profile.

Obviously, if you're going to make content on behalf of the company, it has to be within our guidelines. You can't do anything inappropriate. We really want you making content at the store, so not out in the parking lot while you're slurping down your Venti Latte, when you're trying to put your makeup on while driving the car. We don't want that. We want you to do it in our store under good lighting and show how fun it is that it's like a party to be here and shop and buy.

I would also provide a general stipend. So in California, you have to provide stipend for employees that are using their cell phone for work. I would make that universal across the company that every employee was going to receive a cell phone technology stipend. That way I'm incenting that behavior. So, you know, let's say you're really killing it in Oklahoma. That store is not that busy, but you can direct people to your affiliate link and you can get that.

commission, and it's also very trackable. So as the technology catches up, we can pull reports and look and see and say, hey, these are the content creators that are really selling a lot of this product. And then I bring you all together at the end of the year from across the world, my top, let's say, 50 global sellers, and have an additional layer of reward for you at the end of the year once I've had the chance to collate all this data.

Cynthia Abbott-Kerr (17:50.594)
from social media. And I would be very targeted with what social media, you know, sites and stores we sold on. I think TikTok is the place, you know, and that's where I would target it.

It's interesting, taking Ulta as an example, I don't know how they're doing it. I know that they're paying their creators. I don't know exactly how. As I started researching this topic, now I get, you know, how TikTok works. Now my feed is full of all of the TikTok, all the Ulta employees on TikTok who are doing this. don't...

think they have a TikTok shop link. They're just really trying to drive people to the store. And I think they're taking the celebrity like influencer approach because I know already of a few that if I'm ever in their city, I'm going to that store just to meet the people that are doing it. So I think, I don't know how they're doing it, but I do think if you're going to do the commission structure, then having a clear way, like a TikTok shop link.

or an affiliate link or something that people can use is definitely a very, very smart and simple way of doing it. And honestly, it's the same way everyone's doing it with creators and with external influencers that don't work for you.

Right, right, and it's a common, one, it's common in the marketplace. So you're not trying to teach people something new, right? That's kind of a harder uphill battle than what we think it will be. So you're doing something that people have a general understanding of how to interact with. One, because two, you wanna create as low barrier to trade for buying your product as possible. Three, the incentives are really clear. Sell this, get that.

Cynthia Abbott-Kerr (19:33.966)
And maybe you also know more about certain products. So that's what your affiliate links are versus maybe you're an Ulta associate in Des Moines, Iowa, and you're big into skincare. So maybe that's more of your affiliate links. So the company's not telling you what you must or must not, you know, sell. You can pick and choose. Maybe it's also seasonal. So it really puts the creator in the space of having a lot of control over their financial destiny, if it were.

based on what they could sell.

talk classification, right? Some of your employees have a creator business on the side and they might want to be paid via their creator business, right? Because of all the tax breaks and all of this that we hear. Can someone be a W-2 employee and a 1099 contractor at the same time?

not for the same company. No. And that is, think, the sticky part is, you're creating content maybe for your own business, but you're also working at, let's say, an ALTA and you're creating content for them. You would need two separate lines of compensation because you can't be two classifications as one person in a company.

I think there's ways to reward people in this though. I think making it easy to sell and affiliate links is probably the cleanest. Cause also then if you depart Ulta, you can still sell, right? And Ulta is not gonna have a problem with it cause you're still selling their products, right? You're selling all of these, all of these lipsticks and lip stains and cosmetics and what have you. But it's, it is that, and also who owns the content. So if you're creating for Ulta,

Rhona Pierce (21:05.783)
Yeah.

Cynthia Abbott-Kerr (21:18.976)
Ulta is going to own that or any business. They're going to own the content that you create, even if you're no longer employed at that company. And that can be a hard move too for creators and that you don't get complete dominion over what you've created.

Yes, that's definitely something to consider. But that's also as someone who is a creator and you're doing this, that's where the upfront conversation and having the guidelines comes in. Because I know for one, I'm always and people who are buying this are always asking you what are the usage rights? How long can I use this? Who owns it? So having those conversations upfront.

just like the compensation conversation are really the important things before you go and tell all of your employees to start being creators and giving them commissions, you have to talk about these things.

Yes. And I, you know, our employment agreements are getting longer and longer. So I'd imagine it's buried in like page 15 or 16. But there's probably a clause around inventions and content in really, it technically should be in every offer letter. But anything you've invented or created prior, go ahead and list that out. It may not have a value now and may be valuable five, 10, 15 years from

But you want to go ahead and list out what you own, what you've invented and what you've created because you don't want a business to be able to come along and say, hey, you created that while you worked for us. That's now ours.

Rhona Pierce (22:50.53)
And I think this is a very important point that I want to make sure that listeners are like understanding because a lot of people hide their creator businesses because we know there are companies out there that don't want you to be a creator. So then when they get these forms that we've all seen when we onboard to a company, they don't list these inventions because they think it has to be something big that's out there in the market.

But you have to list these things because they can come, especially if you're talking about products similar to what the company sells and stuff like that, they can claim ownership over anything that you did while you were working with them, if they have a way of proving that you did it company hours, cut on premises or anything. So it's like, just list these things out.

100 % list them out. And also, if we're looking at an employment agreement, also go through and understand what a company's moonlighting policy is. Now, it's 2025 and nothing about the world is getting cheaper. So I think we're going to run into a space where you have people that have multiple engagements, maybe a main engagement and a side or two, just depending. of it's due to interest, some of it's due to necessity and completely respect that. I mean, we are the side hustle generation.

But I think have clarity on that. know, people can get kind of in this excited slash stress space, like, my God, if I don't sign this, you know, I won't have the job. Sit down with it and really understand. And if you need help understanding it, reach out to a lawyer. Don't try to use chat GPT to read a legal document. It didn't go to law school. You also don't get any confidentiality with chat GPT. It's all discoverable. versus you can have a confidential conversation with your lawyer.

But it's important to understand who owns what, how you're going to get paid, and then also how this can impact your future.

Rhona Pierce (24:47.342)
And people would be surprised. There are lawyers out there that won't charge you for something like this. Like I've reached out to employment lawyers to help me read severance agreements or stuff like that. And they've said, look, I can take a quick look at this and tell you yes or no. If you want more or more in-depth consultation, then these are the prices. But they understand you're just someone trying to sign a...

unemployment agreement, you're probably been unemployed for a while, they will give a quick run through and help you. like, don't be afraid to ask, but yes, Chad GPT is not a lawyer. So let's say you're an employee, how would you want to be paid? What should employees be asking for or about when they're getting into these create content creation for their employers?

want to understand what's my base rate. If I work extra hours, what's my guaranteed day come? Then let's talk about what I could potentially earn if I choose to be a content creator, because then there's a whole other crop of people who are like, I don't want to create any content. Right. I just want to come to to work and work, which is perfectly fine. So I think you have to spell out if you want to become a creator and create content here at our business. This is what this looks like.

You know, one, you're getting a cell phone and technology stipend to we'd like you to create. Let's say it's five, a minimum of five video short videos a week and that we want you to use either the products of the season or something that we're trying to promote. Like, I think there has to be a lot of clarity and guidance around what you would like someone to do, because, know, you can have a creator. like, man, I just really like this perfume. And it's like no one's buying that. Like I get the true like it.

but quit making videos about things that aren't selling. So I think there needs to be a lot of structure and strategy around what we would want someone to create. If someone said to me, hey, I want you to come work at Alt and create content, what is it you me to create? What's the parameter? And then if I do this, what's my reward? And it could also be a longer report. Like we're going to wait and see what happens every quarter. So every quarter, we're going to calculate the previous quarter and see what our sales were and then know what your commission should be.

Cynthia Abbott-Kerr (27:08.33)
Or maybe we're going to look at a six month period or even a year, depending on how long we want to set the parameter of the commission. And so then the company's calculating. But I need to know what my base level is. And then if I want to take on being a creator, what that one expectation is from the company and to what that potential reward.

I might get any questions around taxes that people should be asking.

Yes, definitely meet with a tax expert and understand what the tax implication could be depending on what commission you earn and when you earn it. A tax professional can sit down and help you project and help you anticipate what these large amounts of take-home pay could be and help you plan also for your filing.

You know, the good thing about being an employee is that a lot of your filing is already done for you because you are a W-2. Versus if you are an independent business owner, creator, what have you, you have to be responsible for your own filings. But definitely work with a tax professional to understand what those implications could be.

Yeah, to avoid any surprises that you might have on your paycheck or at the end of the year with tax bills and stuff like that. And it's different in every state. So it's best to take that advice from a professional that knows about what's happening and what will it be for your case specifically. Again, don't ask to add GPD for this type of advice. Right. So if someone listening is thinking about launching an employee content program,

Rhona Pierce (28:57.12)
What's one thing that you wish companies would stop doing when it comes to compensating employee creators?

making it complicated. think, you know, far too often businesses try to take a Baskin-Robbins approach and they're going to sell all of these flavors. I think simple is best. I would start with maybe five products in our pantheon of inventory that we want to try and sell and see if content creation can give us that lift. I would have controls in the experiment.

so that I could monitor and know and see what is actually gaining a return. Because if you try to just sell everything all at once, like, it's just gonna be kind of a mosh pit of things being possibly sold, not sold. You don't know, you're tracking this, you're tracking that. But I would say clarity that most of the time, especially when it comes to commission plans, it's the employees are confused about how their commission is calculated. And the reason for that is because the plan that they were given is confusing.

And then finance is confused about how they should be calculated and paid. So you've got basically just a giant circle of no one understands how they should be paid. And then that really defeats the purpose of having a commission-based.

Great advice. What's happening next for WellPay

Cynthia Abbott-Kerr (30:22.158)
Yeah, well, very excited. Jessica Winder has joined us as an ambassador. Yay. So, you know, we're going in, we're rapidly moving into Q4. Q4 is really the time of year where businesses are kind of in that space of like, oh my goodness, we need to get our compensation strategy. We either need to get all of our jobs aligned to market. We need to evaluate our commission.

plans before we go into January. The last thing you want to do is be halfway through the fiscal year and then say, all right, we're going to reevaluate plans and structures. Do that before the year kicks off so that everybody has time to understand what you need them to go out and achieve and how their role is going to fit into the business at large. so Jessica is going to be joining us on this journey to help us think.

you know, strategically and how do we continue to partner with CHROs and CPOs? I think when I first got into compensation, it was kind of more of the back office function, right? And now it's really having its moment and rightfully so that a lot of compensation rewards leaders are taking the main stage because people are your most critical aspect to your business. They're also going to be one of the most costly. So it's important to get it right.

And people are also learning and being more educated and being empowered to ask about compensation and have opinions. yeah, it totally makes sense that compensation leaders are not in the shadows like before. How can listeners connect with you?

Reach out to me, my email is cynthia at wellpay.ai or you're welcome to send me a note on LinkedIn to anyone who's listening. you're driving in the car or on the treadmill or what have you and you're like, man, I really need to get my compensation aligned or, know, finance and I have been talking about redoing the commission statements, but that feels like a lot of work. That's okay. Reach out to me. We have patented tools and technology that just allow us to move faster and get to an

Cynthia Abbott-Kerr (32:31.852)
accurate solution more quickly. So there's no time like the present. But yes, Cynthia at wellpay.ai or you can find me on LinkedIn.

Amazing and I will link all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much, Cynthia, for being on the show today.

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

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