Tara Turk-Haynes NEW-001

[00:00:00] Rhona Pierce: Do you ever worry that your storytelling might make people uncomfortable or is that the point?

[00:00:03] Tara Turk-Haynes:  I don't want to make anybody uncomfortable on purpose, but some people are uncomfortable because they refuse to understand that their lived experience is not the only experience. And so if that happens, then you have to get uncomfortable to get comfortable.

[00:00:22] Rhona Pierce: How do you balance truth telling with being strategic, especially when you're still in the system?

[00:00:27] Tara Turk-Haynes: You can't go in guns a blazing, but my goal is never to burn a bridge. I just want people to have more compassion and understanding for things that have not had to think about. If you're at a HR conference, if you're a HR conference organizer, do you always think about the places where some people might not feel safe?

What's your process?

[00:00:48] Rhona Pierce: For like shaping what you see in the workplace into content that builds community.

[00:00:54] Tara Turk-Haynes: I surround myself with people who are not necessarily in workplace trends, and so if we start [00:01:00] thinking about, for example, I think I did a TikTok video on, and yours and Mine's favorite subject, why we can't hire remotely in every.

Part of the universe. Right? And I think that companies do such a terrible job of telling the story of why this is right. We just literally will be like, it's remote. Why can't we just tell the story so that people understand it and not like assume that people are in our brains and do this stuff every single day.

[00:01:27] Rhona Pierce: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Work Fluent Pod. I am so excited to have one of my favorite people in our industry and basically in the world. I'm here today with me, Tara Turk Hayes. Thank you so much for joining us today, Tara.

[00:01:44] Tara Turk-Haynes: Uh, I'm so excited. You know how much I love you, so this is gonna be so much fun.

This is not work, this is fun.

[00:01:50] Rhona Pierce: Alright, so for those who don't know you, can you give us the 32nd elevator pitch?

[00:01:55] Tara Turk-Haynes: Uh, yes. I am a first generation college grad corporate [00:02:00] worker who fell into, uh, talent acquisition through the advocacy of someone else, and that inspired my leadership and my work ethic and. So, uh, after being in-house for talent acquisition, employee engagement and performance management, and you name it, I'm now a consultant and helping other companies, um, embed equity and fairness into their operational practices.

[00:02:24] Rhona Pierce: And Tara isn't gonna say this, but I've said it many, many times. She is my absolute favorite manager of all time that I ever had, thanks to Tara. I believe in corporate again.

[00:02:37] Tara Turk-Haynes: Oh, I'm so glad we were a match made in heaven. And one day it's my dream to either do something spectacular again together, whether it's in-house or changing the world, another level.

But I just absolutely loved working with you. It was just like a highlight of my career.

[00:02:53] Rhona Pierce: Likewise. So today we're gonna talk a little about content. We're gonna talk about [00:03:00] TA in hr, but I really wanna talk about something that you don't talk about much. Um, but you're a playwright and you found your way into Tally acquisition in DEI work.

Yeah. Most people see these as completely different worlds. Mm-hmm. But I suspect that you see them as deeply connected. Can you tell me a bit about that connection?

[00:03:20] Tara Turk-Haynes: Yeah. Um, so yes, uh, as many uh, artists, I, uh, got a degree in theater, uh, and realized I could not support myself in artistry as a Capricorn, I am not one to be a starving artist.

I. So I got a day job and I was in, uh, lucky enough to be an executive assistant for C-level executives, like, and that's, that was my day job. I started immediately from there. So, um, and, and really considered it a profession and for many years kept all of these things separate. But for a long time, my day job helped me be able to write.

Um, at night and other [00:04:00] times and still have some level of creativity, um, success, I think in my, in my lane. But, you know, I think that the more I started to do these things over the years, the more I realized how important they are. I feel like, um, when we started talking about the theme for this show, one of the things I think that came up for me was that we are taught to separate our stories as soon as we start working.

We are told to be work 10 times harder. Don't tell anybody about your politics, don't tell anybody about your religion. You know, some people are naturally guarded. You don't need to know anything about my family. So we start as soon as we, it's almost like severance for real, right? We step, we step into the, the, the job and we immediately cut off who we are as people.

And the older I get, the longer I work in this industry, the more I realize that's probably why we are. At, at this crossroads that we're in right now?

[00:04:57] Rhona Pierce: A hundred, a hundred percent. And you'll [00:05:00] probably notice throughout this episode that both Tara and I are very avid TV show watchers. We have an entire group chat where we talk about TV show, so that will come up a lot.

I'm sure it

[00:05:12] Tara Turk-Haynes: will. It will, it will. And, and it's the saving grace. Um, in addition to our love of the same lipstick, we also love the.

[00:05:21] Rhona Pierce: Exactly. So in in theater you're really trained to see stories. Yeah. Where other might just, others might just see like ordinary moments. Mm-hmm. How does that lens work? Like how do you bring that into the corporate world?

I.

[00:05:35] Tara Turk-Haynes: Yeah, so I think the beautiful thing about theater and storytelling is that if you think about like an Arthur Miller, right? And you think of a death of a salesman, that play is literally about work and how it affects your personal life, right? I go to the theater, I write theater, and I do it for regular people.

Um, and not just like I I, and there's nothing against like the [00:06:00] fantastical, beautiful sort of like wickeds and all of those kinds of things. I love those as well. But my calling to theater, um, especially when I was young, young black girl in Detroit and I didn't even know we could do theater. So when I saw.

You know, a production. I saw people who were sitting around me and their stories up on stage, and that's really what spoke to me. And I feel like when people go to the theater, you know, we are seeing slices of our own lives and that happens at work. A lot. And so some people view them as different, uh, aspects, and that's why I started getting a little bit into content and trying to merge them a bit and talk to people who view Hollywood even as like this myth mythical place.

It's a workplace. It's got the same problems that you would have. It just looks a little bit different, right? So how can we connect these things so people don't feel so separated from, [00:07:00] you know, what's happening around them because it's this, it's. You know, it's all around us. Like everything is really connected.

So that's how I feel. It's really important for us to get back to the storytelling in, in the workplace.

[00:07:12] Rhona Pierce: Yeah. And, and a lot happens in the workplace. Yes. And workplace. Um, any workplace. What makes, what makes a workplace moment like story worthy to you?

[00:07:22] Tara Turk-Haynes: It's so interesting because I think that, uh, the moments that you see, for example, leaders who try to come into the room and be all knowing and because I think that's what leaders, some leaders think is leadership, right?

I, I need to, it's a almost like a, uh, a, a parental thing. I need to be able to make decisions for everyone in the room when leadership is really about, you know, delegation and trust and autonomy and making sure, you know, everybody has their. Their purpose, and then I will just orchestrate you. Um, but when those moments fall a little bit, you see like how they fail miserably.

[00:08:00] So like, for me, I think it's really dramatic to think about, for example, a Klarna, right? With Klarna who's just like, Hey, we're gonna fire everybody and have AI bot and it's gonna be the greatest thing ever. I mean, what, what a great movie to be like. Just kidding. Um, this is all failed miserably. We're gonna hire people again.

Like there are so many amazing stories that Trent, that trans, I. Into the workplace that if you retell that story to someone you know who's not living, breathing, um, HR workplace trends like you and I are right. That's why I love social media so much. 'cause there's so many people on there who are not leaving and breathing all of the things that we talk about.

They just go to work and they're like, wow, that's wild. That happened. That's, you know what I mean? And you translate it to them and they go, huh? You know, and they feel a way, the target is a great example of this, right? Target literally being like such a, a, a staunch sort of advocate for, you know, inclusion.

And then a moment they get an opportunity, they walk it [00:09:00] back with the quickness, right? And there's a reason why that's such a dramatic story. It's because so many communities felt very much, um, there was a trust. Stare. Oh, I trust you that you see me, right? I trust that you see me as a consumer and as a candidate, and now that you've rolled this back so quickly.

What were, what were we even in, what relationship did we even have? Right? And that's a story as well. And so now, you know, even with the double down, it's, if you retell this story, it's, it's literally as dramatic as, um, you know, as a Star Wars. It could be really, could be.

[00:09:32] Rhona Pierce: If you've made it this far into the episode and you're not subscribed yet.

Now's a good time. I mean, it's you, you hit the nail on the head there because with the target thing, yeah. Lots of companies are rolling back their DEI and all of that. We get it. But with Target, it's like you were one of us. Like we felt, we believed these stories that you've been telling for years. 'cause they were amazing at storytelling and bringing everyone in like they did more than just tell [00:10:00] stories.

Mm-hmm. They built a community around it. Mm-hmm. And then when you, um. Betray your community. Yeah, and I should have put it in quotes when you betray your community, because that's what they did. People feel it and you'll feel the effects quickly. Just like Target is doing. This is gonna be an amazing story in a few years.

Of what not to do. Exactly. Exactly. So there's, so there's a difference between telling a story and telling a story that creates genuine connections, right? Mm-hmm. And, and like, that's what you're really all about. And what I like about your content, it's really about building community and building true connections.

What's your process for like shaping what you see in the workplace into content that builds community?

[00:10:44] Tara Turk-Haynes: I always go back to being a first generation corporate worker and a college graduate and knowing that, like my mom was an accounting clerk all of her career, so really didn't advance, it was just literally accounting clerk.

Right? And my dad [00:11:00] worked on the line for 40 years. I always think about something that happens in the workplace and how do I explain that to, you know, my dad passed away in oh five, but still if I was like, how do I explain this to my dad? Right? Where he would be like. Interested in this story and or he would ask questions.

Right. Um, I surround myself with people who are not necessarily in workplace trends. And so if we start thinking about, for example, I think I did a TikTok video on, and yours and Mine's favorite subject, why we can't hire remotely in every part of the universe. Right. And I think that companies do such a terrible job of telling the story of why this is right.

We just literally will be like, um. It's remote except for, and then there's like a long list of states and you don't say like, why that is. You just go, I can't hire you if you're in California or Florida, or I can't hire you if you're in Nigeria. Right? Like, there's a reason for this. And so, um, when I saw, you know, a lot of people [00:12:00] talking about, um, on Reddit talking about like, you know, the true remote work, I was like, I think there's a disconnect.

So I did a, a video for it. And I posted it on Facebook, which I hate going to, but you know, there's so many people there who are not in other places and they need this information. I had a high school friend who literally was just like, you explain this better to me than my own HR person did. When I had to go back and take care of my dad and explain why I could not like.

Stayed there for a long period of time and I said, where is this? Why are we not, why are we like this? Like why are we, why can't we just tell the story so that people understand it and not like, assume that people are in our brains and do this stuff every single day.

[00:12:41] Rhona Pierce: Do you think that most HR folks. Even understand the reasoning behind some of the things, for example, this remote thing.

Do you really think that everyone understands the reasons why?

[00:12:52] Tara Turk-Haynes: I think it's divided. I think there are people who understand and forget to bring people along, which is true inclusion, right for me. Like [00:13:00] that's how you, you, um. In practice, when we talk about inclusion, I don't always think it's just like speaking engagements in book clubs, which I think of are a value, but it's literally how you operate and how you show up in the workplace.

So I think those people sometimes forget, oh, I should, I need to bring people along. Right. And then I also think that there's a wave of HR people who. Probably started during COVID, um, probably didn't get trained very well. Teams are limited. You know, somebody was just like, you could be an HR business partner.

Do you care about people? Okay. Knock yourself out. And then you could Google everything else. So I think there's like this information, um, void and I think there's also this inclusion void. And you know, there's obvi, and I caveat this with, there are so many great HR people, but it's almost like. They can't do everything for the people who could not do the other stuff.

Right? Like they can only cover but so much territory. So I just feel like we do have a problem in terms of [00:14:00] like operationalizing our storytelling and understanding the why of things.

[00:14:05] Rhona Pierce: Yeah. Um, do you remember a time when something that you shared made someone reach out and say, like, I felt seen.

[00:14:15] Tara Turk-Haynes: Yeah, I, um, I did a video and I honestly can't remember, I think it was talking about like the power dynamics in interviewing, right?

Because so many people are on work. And so many people who could get jobs really easily. Not in hr, I'm just talking about regular people getting jobs. Um, and someone reached out to me on, on social, um, in my dms and said their daughter was having such a horrible time. Oh, you know what it was, it was actually talking about references.

And lying on your resume. And I just said, listen, like don't put anything on your resume that has to be checked. Like stop listening to people saying lie on your resume. 'cause you could literally not get a job. Mm-hmm. And references are essentially not supposed to be someone's opinion of you. They're [00:15:00] supposed to be like either.

I, I Rona can attest to my work ethic or the HR person can tell you what years I worked there. There are two different kinds of checking and verifying, and a mom slid into my dms and told me that her daughter was having such a horrible time because she had, um. Apply for a job, and the last job that she had, the manager was so awful that she struggled with even listing this person's name.

So I said, there's a difference, right? You don't have to list that person's name legally. All they have to do is say whether you work there from A to B and to C, and this is what your title was and et cetera, right? You don't have to make that person your reference in terms of. Testifying to your work ethic.

That person doesn't even actually have to be your manager. It could be a coworker, right? Somebody who has witnessed you actually doing the work. So separating those two things, and I think people didn't know that, right? So for me, that was really moving [00:16:00] because I. A mom and a daughter are stressed out over something that literally no one had ever explained to them before.

You're, you're, you know, it's really, uh, um, impacting the whole family. And so hopefully the information I gave her was really helpful. But who's out there telling people this stuff?

[00:16:16] Rhona Pierce: Exactly. There, there's a lot of people out there just saying whatever for clicks and engagement, and we'll get into that a little later, but like, how do you balance being.

Honest about workplace challenges? Yeah. While still being constructive.

[00:16:33] Tara Turk-Haynes: Yeah, I think that my years of operating and overseeing employee engagement really helped out, right? I, um, didn't know anything about employee engagement until it was given to me when I was at our last place of work, and I was like two years in and I was like, what is this?

And. I realized that if you think about, you know, and I, I'm, I, I'm lucky enough to also have a journalism background. And so for me, I think what comes [00:17:00] into play is what is the answer I'm trying to get to, and how do I filter out all of the noise? Because I don't necessarily believe in venting, back channeling.

I don't, you know, and when we were administering engagement surveys, I, I don't wanna hear you just complain for the sake of. Complaining. If you're about to tell me that you hate the candy that we have in the candy aisle, then I, I, what can I do with that? I'm not doing anything with that. I wanna know exactly what's impacting how you operate in the workplace and what's preventing you from being great.

Right. Tell me what's preventing you from being great and showing up and giving your best and being judged on your best. I think then we start to define what constructive is, right? And so for me, I have to always think about what's really helpful as opposed to what do I really wanna say? Right. I have friends.

Listen, you're on my group chat. I can come to you and say all the nonsense and then turn it on and go to, you know, TikTok or somebody else and tell them the constructive pieces of it. You just have to know where to place your information, [00:18:00] right? Everybody doesn't need everything. I.

[00:18:01] Rhona Pierce: Exactly. And oh my gosh, no one could ever pry that group chat away from me.

Like, no, I will like take a bullet for that group chat before it gets,

[00:18:13] Tara Turk-Haynes: we all need a place to land and be ourselves and all of that. And then we think about, okay, so now that I've given you a safe space, uh, I have a safe space to land for this stuff. Then how do I take all of that and go, okay, so how do I make this constructive for someone or some organization?

Because they don't need to hear everything. They just need to hear what's gonna help them change. Right.

[00:18:35] Rhona Pierce: Exactly. So everyone please, and I think this is my PSA for the world, please have a group chat. Yes. Don't go bet on the internet.

[00:18:44] Tara Turk-Haynes: No, no. You know what I, because it you don't understand. That's the wrong storytelling.

That's, that's the storytelling. I think that is, um. Unfortunately, people judge you based off of your reaction. And if we think about the [00:19:00] workplace, reacting sometimes will bite us because we haven't done the work to process bias or um, professional trauma, any of those things that we have from past workplaces.

We haven't done that work yet. So unless you've done that work, then you understand, okay, this is the appropriate audience for this. Right. Find your audience in for different things. You have an audience for different things, just like in theater, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not gonna go, you know, to uh, Shakespeare's old globe and be like, Hey, let's do a Tyler Perry play.

Like, they'll be like, woo, okay. You know what I mean? Like, it just doesn't work. It doesn't translate.

[00:19:37] Rhona Pierce: Know your audience. So know your audience when you're telling stories about equity or power dynamics mm-hmm. What's your intention? Like, who are you really speaking

[00:19:47] Tara Turk-Haynes: to? I. The person who has the least power.

Um, and then, 'cause I think if you begin with the person who probably has the least power in that relationship, [00:20:00] everybody learns from that, right? Because you're, you're giving that person. Information to be able to advocate for themselves, right? If they start advocating for themselves, and especially in a way that creates boundaries that are, you know, respectful, um, that are really based in what's important in that moment, then even the person who has more power dynamics in that relationship can learn from that, right?

Because. My boundaries are very clear. Right? I don't have to have you walking all over me. I don't have to have you. You know, when I started being an ea it was, you know, I had bosses who would yell at me, scream at me. I had one boss who hit himself upside the head. Like, listen, it just, you know, and I would just sit there and be like, that's wild.

'cause as long as you keep that physical altercation with you and you, we are, we're good to go. Right? So I think it's a matter of just understanding how to. Advocate for yourself in a way that allows you to have the fear, freedom to express yourself, to show up the way that you want to. I don't believe in showing up [00:21:00] like as your whole self unless you wanna do that, but stop people telling people to do that because some people don't want to, you know, they just wanna show you what they can do, why they are good workers, you know, that's really important.

[00:21:10] Rhona Pierce: Quick break. If you've been thinking about starting a podcast but don't know where to begin, I've got something for you. I'm letting woman in ta, HR or employer brand take over the work fluent podcast for one episode. I am so excited to

[00:21:25] Tara Turk-Haynes: be able to do a podcast takeover, and I'm joining Rona Pierce

[00:21:29] Rhona Pierce: today as a guest host.

Rona is the creator of the Work Flu Podcast. You get a behind the scenes look at how I plan and produce everything. I handle all the editing, and you walk away with a fully edited episode, social clips, and the audio to launch your own pod if you want. If that sounds like your kind of test drive, head over to work flu podcast.com to apply.

Do you ever worry that your storytelling might make people [00:22:00] uncomfortable or is that the point?

[00:22:01] Tara Turk-Haynes: I think that it has, and I think I've worked through that. I don't want to make anybody uncomfortable on purpose, but some people are uncomfortable because they refuse to understand that their lived experience.

Is not the only experience. And so if that happens, then you have to get uncomfortable to get comfortable. And I'm not gonna let anyone sort of dictate what my experience as a, you know, African American black woman, uh, you know, with descendant from the Great Migration, um, you know, grew up in the Midwest.

My experience is very valid. And so, and there are a lot of people who have never experienced that, so they should be asking me questions. And I say this a lot, it's just like when you have a predominant, uh, culture in any society, those are the people who need to be asking more questions to the other people who are not, you know, who are not dominant in that society.

Tell me what your experience is like. You will still never know what it's like for us to walk into [00:23:00] a room that's predominantly white. And feel like, uh, I feel like, okay. Right. I don't, I, I feel safe. I don't, you know, there's some reasons why I don't go to certain conferences. I'm like, this is like a predominantly white institutions reunion and I don't feel comfortable because I don't, I.

That I've not had great experiences in those arenas, and they, and it, it gives me a flashback. And those people who are not my friends or who don't unknow me, don't understand that or don't take the time to even ask why would this not be a good, you know, why does she not wanna be here? How come she doesn't wanna party until, you know, whatever.

I'm just, no, I don't wanna party with you. This is an HR event. I don't wanna party with you. I have my party friends.

[00:23:44] Rhona Pierce: Same, same, same as someone who just came from a couple of HR conferences. Mm-hmm. Same is all I'm gonna say. Right. Um, how do you, how do you balance truth telling with being strategic, especially when you're still [00:24:00] in the system?

[00:24:02] Tara Turk-Haynes: Yes. Yeah. That's such a good question. Um, because I think that. You still have to be careful, right? You can't go in guns a blazing. And I think that, I think that, uh, we forget that sometimes if you're ready to burn that bridge, then sure, go ahead. But my goal is never to burn a bridge. I just want people to have more compassionate understanding for things that they don't, that they have not had to think about.

Um, so if you, you know, sort of the, going back to the experience, if you're at a HR conference, if you're HR conference. Uh, uh, you know, um, organizer, do you always think about the places where some people might not feel safe in order for them to actually retain the information that you're trying? You're trying with all your might that you think this is so important, are you creating the environment for that person to retain that information without them wondering about other things?

Right? So how do we extend that, [00:25:00] uh, that, that, that bridge, and I think when I think about. You know, still being in the system, you wanna make the system better as much as possible. I don't wanna burn it down. I just want the system to work for everybody, and it really doesn't. And so when I think about being strategic, I'm thinking, how can I tell this person or this organization, this thing that allows them to go a little bit deeper so that there's an action.

You know, there's a call to action that they can take. And even if it's a small step, it's still a step that they didn't realize before. Oh, I never thought of that. You know what I mean? Like that kind of thing.

[00:25:36] Rhona Pierce: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I know this, or I think I know this. Looking from the outside and as I talk to you more mm-hmm.

I. I still believe it. Like I, it feels like it's bigger stories that you're trying to tell. Mm-hmm. Beyond these individual posts, can you talk about like the bigger narrative that you're building?

[00:25:56] Tara Turk-Haynes: Yeah. And, and I think it just happened like, you [00:26:00] know, probably within the last year of being a consultant for the first time in my entire life.

Um, I think stepping out of being in-house, even if it wasn't my choice. Forced me to understand that there are more stories that needs to be told in order for the workplace to work better, and I keep trying things. I think that will be helpful for people. I don't want my audience to just be HR people or workplace people.

I really want it to be all of those people who are looking for a job. Or wanna have a job and the job not suck. Um, you know what I mean? Like, I, I really wanna reach those people who keep saying like, HR is for the company and not for the people. Right. I wanna, 'cause I, I feel like there's, there's some bad PR out there and once people sort of take, um, control of the resources available to them [00:27:00] in the workplace, the workplace will change for you.

Right. We need more people going in and saying like, actually, I know that you can't interview me this way. You can't ask these questions. You can't, you know, when you know what your rights are in any societal construct, then society has to change because you're knowledgeable about it, right? Like. You won't let it go.

You're not gonna let it walk over you. And I think that the larger, that's the larger goal for me is just to educate people on what's possible for them and what they can advocate for, um, and not be silent because so many generations before us had no voice at all. And we're terrified. Right. And that was by design,

[00:27:42] Rhona Pierce: because we were always told, yeah, be quiet.

Just put your head down. Do it. Yeah. And magically things will work. And guess what? Magically, nothing worked.

[00:27:51] Tara Turk-Haynes: Nothing worked. Nothing worked at all. And you still have people, and I think. You know, sometimes people think that this is all so far. You know, my mom was born [00:28:00] during Jim Crow, essentially, like she was born in, in the fifties.

And so, you know, I was just telling someone the other day, um, you know, the year I was born is the year women were able to get checking accounts on their own. So like, none of this is like such a distant past, right? And so we have a lot of work to do in order to make up for some of this stuff. And they're prevailing.

Horrible biases and stereotypes that get passed down from generation to generation. And those are sometimes the people making decisions about your livelihood. And that sucks, right? Yeah. Like that sucks so bad because they are at home, you know, thinking like most black people are on welfare. And that's because the story that they were told, right?

And it's not true.

[00:28:42] Rhona Pierce: It's absolutely not true, and I think so many people here, as you know, I'm not from here, I'm from Panama. Right. I'm from a whole other country mm-hmm. Where my dad's reality because my dad grew up in the American side where the, the US was running the Panama [00:29:00] Canal and my mom grew up and yeah, there she.

My dad's older, but not that much older. He's only six years older than my mom. But their reality was so different because my dad was living in the times where, oh, you have to, um, drink water from this fountain and you can only go to this school and things like that. And that was not my mom's reality at all.

[00:29:22] Tara Turk-Haynes: Yeah. I think that that's the other thing too, is if we think about, um. Even when we say black people or we say the Latina community, I think people don't seem to understand how many different communities. Are in there as well, right? And it's those people who have had the privilege to not know any of that.

Like why would they ever want to know any of this information? So we have to be, but because you're making decisions about us, if you're a voter, if you participate in a workplace, you are still making decisions about these communities that you don't even have any information about. And I think that. You know, [00:30:00] the more we talk about our stories, which is why storytelling is so important and we shouldn't be leaving it at the door, that's the reason why these people need to understand like, oh, you know, this is, this makes sense now.

That's why I tell people, you know, these observance months, they're not for us. Like I already know black history. Like I, I, um, you know, I, I'm giving, I give tribute all year round 365 women's history. Everybody's. Actually everybody's observance month. I'm all down for it. It's not for the people who are strategically undervalued.

It's for the people who have been able to opt out of knowing anything about these communities at all whatsoever. It's American history. That's why we have them.

[00:30:42] Rhona Pierce: A hundred percent. And as an immigrant living here, it's wild that people here, especially like the voters, don't understand that what they're voting for and what they are like.

Doing mm-hmm. Affects the world, right? Because whether we want to accept [00:31:00] it or not, especially this time, the US really, um, dictates how things happen throughout the world. Mm-hmm. Um, so more people like you and, and more of these stories being shared. Because what I find is people generally. Don't know, I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Mm-hmm. And there's a lot of people here who don't even know the story of their own town. Right. Like, how is it possible that I, that someone learned about the Tulsa, um, race massacre because of me. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Wild. Right?

[00:31:33] Tara Turk-Haynes: Right. And that was like the first place after I saw you, I went to go visit. I. Have dinner with Rona, go see my favorite police station and then go to the, go to the uh, you know where Black Wall Street was.

But see that's the thing too, is I think, um, it's not even just as US citizen, but also let's boil it back down to even HR and why storytelling's important. If you are a benefits administrator [00:32:00] and you don't know the kind of benefits that would help all the myriads of people that are in your workplace, right?

I've got, um, the immigrant. You know, someone who is English as a second language. You know, we're talking about benefits in pers uh, we're talking about, you know, caregiving. We're talking about all these different pieces where if you just make decisions based off of the limited things that you know, and you're not continuously trying to grow, how are you serving the employee population?

[00:32:29] Rhona Pierce: Exactly. Um. And, and when we talk about content, and I always try to bring it back on this podcast. Mm-hmm. Everyone's thinking about social media content, but as HR professionals, we have a lot of content internally that we can and should be sharing. Mm-hmm. What's your recommendation for an HR professional who maybe doesn't wanna tell stories publicly, but.

How should they start and go about telling these stories internally within their organizations?

[00:32:58] Tara Turk-Haynes: See, I think that's when you [00:33:00] have, you know, unfortunately, we're now, you know, in this time where some companies are dismantling diversity, equity, inclusion efforts, but this is when you would use your employee resource groups, right?

You can't possibly know everybody's plight. That is one thing that I learned being someone who oversaw those programs in-house is that I can't know what everyone's pain point or struggle is. I have to develop, um, a, a level of trust with people within the organization that they will come to me and highlight something that's really important to them.

And then that you turn it around and you say, okay, if we have an employee resource group that's for caregivers. And we wanna talk about, you know, um, you know, if we think about COVID and at the time one of our, uh, ERGs for parents, they were doing breast milk swaps. Like they were, you know, or formula swaps.

They were like, who needs what? How, you know, when we think about the scarcity, how do we provide for [00:34:00] community, right? If you lean into the community aspect, because com companies are not families, they're communities. I've said this so many times, if you lean into taking care of your community. Then you will provide a way for people to be able to show up and really give what is uniquely valuable to them.

Those stories include that if you give people space to show up, that's why, you know, when we were doing our. Speaker series. I always invited one person from that community. If we're doing an observance month to tell their story. I'm not the most appropriate person to talk about A API or even mental health, honestly.

Like I do have some like anxiety, but I don't, I'm not impacted the way other people are if people want to be able to show up. 'cause I think. People do wanna do that in, in companies. There are some people who really wanna be able to tell their story, but how do they do that? What's your avenue of giving them the ability to reach out to people in, in that way?

And I think that's where HR [00:35:00] or internal comms or you know, anything, how do you tell your story about being in this organization so people can learn more about you?

[00:35:07] Rhona Pierce: I love it and I think it's important to, I think when people hear the word story, they're thinking all this fabulous thing. Stories are everywhere.

It's in every little moment. It's something I've been talking about this year and we'll continue to talk about it a few conferences, like stories are everywhere. But I wanna hear from you 'cause I know my, my method. How do you. Find those interesting stories. So yes, you have your ERGs, you have those people, but like mm-hmm.

They're not always gonna be like, Hey, I wanna tell my story. Yeah. How do you find the interesting stories?

[00:35:41] Tara Turk-Haynes: There's a lot of coaxing that gets involved. I think. You know, I think what for me, um, I. Having overseen talent acquisition in addition to DEI at our former company, it allowed me, because in the talent acquisition process, when you are interviewing people, [00:36:00] you're asking questions about them.

You are learning a lot about people, and it's not, you know, it's about the people and their ability to do the job, but there are some questions that help you really kind of understand the human being that you're hiring, which I think is really valuable. Um, I do, like, I tell a lot of people, um, who ask me about getting into ta, I'm like, take a journalism class so you can get, you know, get the right questions under your belt if it's not organic to you.

Um. That way. I knew most of the people who were coming into the organization and I knew that they had different, you know, interests and backgrounds, and I listened. I active listening is so important and retaining that information. Um, even when we're doing like, you know, decisions to, you know, hiring manager postmortems, right?

This person. You know, this is, this is what's really important to them. This is how they grow. This is what they, you know, you're giving a holistic approach to the person. So by [00:37:00] the time they're actually in the company, I know a little bit about them at that point. Right. Um, and I'm thinking specifically about one Black history month.

We did, and I approached one individual we hired, and he was like. Okay, but I'm not from here. I am actually Reen, and I was like, great. What is this? What does black history mean to you then if this isn't, you know, if you're an immigrant, right? What does this even mean to you? How are we having a better conversation so we're not just having the same conversation?

People like post on social media when they do the same. Martin Luther King, you know, I have a dreams. Beach, which, you know, letters from Birmingham Jail is far more interesting to me. Like how we go beyond the other stuff that we're talking about. So we're not just having the same conversation. And I think once people see that they wanna contribute to it a little bit, right?

They do wanna be able to be like, okay, I do have some thoughts about that. It's a conversation. It's a continuous conversation, is what it is. [00:38:00]

[00:38:00] Rhona Pierce: Yes. And I love that you recommend that people take a journalism class, um mm-hmm. For ta and it's funny 'cause I, I don't even think you know this, but that's really what I wanted to study.

I wanted to study journalism. I wanted to study broadcasting. And my family very well intentioned. Always told me like, 'cause in the country that I lived at that time, they're like, look, turn on the TV and look at who's on tv. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You are not going to be a broadcast journalist on this in this country.

Mm-hmm. So think about that. They never said, don't study that. Yeah. And then. I worked at the Panama Canal, um, in the IT department, and that's what got me interested in engineering and that's why I went that route. But when I enrolled in college, I enrolled in broadcasting and mass communications, and then I, I switched it and now look at what I do now I have a podcast, now I'm on different podcasts and now I, I do stuff like that, but.

What all of that to say is I was always the type of person who [00:39:00] wanted to learn about other people and ask questions. Mm-hmm. And I really think when people are like, how did you end up in ta? Really? It's because I care about Yes. 'cause I'm nosy af that's what I'm gonna tell you. And I just like asking people questions and that's why Yeah.

I did good in ta. I believe in, that's why I, I have a podcast 'cause all I wanna do is learn from other people. But active listening, it's such an important thing. And for all of those TA people out there who think that, oh, well I'm just a recruiter. I don't have to tell stories. All of that. Absolutely not.

You are one of the most important storytellers within the organization because you take what you've asked a, a candidate and what you've seen in all of the, the, the scorecards and everything throughout the process. And when you come into a debrief meeting with a hiring manager, it's your job to tell the story of.

Each and every one of those candidates in a way [00:40:00] that takes everyone away from their biases and whatever, and you're just presenting facts and presenting a story about the person. Mm-hmm. So TA people, if you're not good at storytelling, you are not a good TA person. So storytelling is mm-hmm. And like journals asking questions, active listening mm-hmm.

I think are one of the most important skills for TA people.

[00:40:22] Tara Turk-Haynes: I a hundred percent agree with you. And even on the reverse side, if a candidate is asking you questions about the organization, you know what I mean, and nine times outta 10, you don't have an internal comms person who's going to tell you what that stuff is, right?

So how are you telling someone how they can be successful in the organization? And if you are telling people that you want the star method. How are you giving the star method back to them?

[00:40:49] Rhona Pierce: That part? Yes. Um, so what's one workplace story that you are excited to tell but haven't figured out how to tell [00:41:00] yet?

[00:41:01] Tara Turk-Haynes: It's so interesting you asked that. 'cause you know, I'm on a hiatus with my. Uh, very short-lived, uh, not a newsletter, uh, called The Way We Build. I'm on hiatus. It was three months and I was like, this isn't working. The way that I'm telling these stories is not working. Um. So, you know, probably it's an exclusive, breaking it here.

No, but, uh, what the project that I'm actually working on is doing, um, many short stories off of the workplace to allow people some other complexity or understanding of workplace so, uh, of situations that they may not know about. I think the only way that there was really helpful for people. Is using my talent as also a short story person or even a playwright, is to be able to do many segments of these selections that happen at work.

Um, we always say like, it would be so great if you could have a reality show off of hr, but HIPAA violations, well, I've [00:42:00] decided to fictionalize them so we can get around the HIPA violations. Where do we submit our stories to get them? You know, listen, um, you, you go to my website, uh, equity activations.com.

You can sign up for the way we build, um, or my link tree. But I am, I'm going to work on like many short pieces that really kind of, uh, allow people to understand those workplaces in a, in a different light and not just from one source, right? Because they impact each other. If you even think about a hiring manager intake for a job.

How many people are involved in that and how many different ways can that go poorly and how many ways that can that go really well and what are the domino effects of it? I think we just, I think that's the thing is like sometimes when we're at work, I. We only think about the, you know, what's the 30 foot around us?

We don't necessarily think about big picture or we don't think about how something is going to affect someone. This is why, you know, I'm going to die, [00:43:00] I'll die saying this. But these no reply rejections from ATSs are killing your story as a brand. Um. You don't understand how that's impacting the people who receive them, whether you are advocating for them and you will use, but this, you have an excuse, you have a reason why you're doing them.

You don't understand how that's impacting the people who receive them.

[00:43:22] Rhona Pierce: Exactly. So I've loved this conversation.

[00:43:26] Tara Turk-Haynes: Me too. I could talk to you for hours and do sometimes, but yeah.

[00:43:31] Rhona Pierce: But now we're moving into my favorite segment, which I am really hoping becomes everyone's favorite segment. Mm-hmm. So this segment is called Plead the Fifth.

Mm-hmm. You can probably know where I got the inspiration from, but you know Andy Cohen and watch What Happens. Live is one of my favorite shows. Oh, good. So I'm gonna ask you three questions. Okay. You're not gonna know the questions ahead of time, and you can only plead the fifth to one.

[00:43:59] Tara Turk-Haynes: Oh boy. [00:44:00]

[00:44:00] Rhona Pierce: Are you ready?

[00:44:01] Tara Turk-Haynes: No, but go ahead. Alright.

[00:44:04] Rhona Pierce: Have you ever subtweet or indirectly called someone out in your content? Absolutely.

[00:44:13] Tara Turk-Haynes: Can you name

[00:44:14] Rhona Pierce: them?

[00:44:14] Tara Turk-Haynes: Can we name them? I probably, I mean, the Safe bed is gonna be shrm. Okay, everyone's,

[00:44:26] Rhona Pierce: everyone's done that. Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. Alright, next question. What's the darkest moment of your career that no one knows about?

[00:44:39] Tara Turk-Haynes: I wanna say when I got the VP of DE nine talent, uh, in the middle of COVID, right after the murder of George Floyd and others, um, and, uh, I probably, uh, and at the beginning of perimenopause, uh, my mental health suffered. [00:45:00] Significantly for me, right? As a Capricorn, like I don't, you know, it's not gonna be like, you know, someone else's significant is different from mine, but I'm used to having a level of control, a level of charge and release, and I literally would have like panic attacks, shortness of breath.

Uh, so therapy really helped me at that time, work through, um. A lot of the things that I felt like I could power through historically. 'cause that's what we're taught to be able to do, is just like, run through that brick wall, you'll be fine. Right? And I finally was like this, these are brick walls I cannot run through because they're too many of them.

We weren't, we weren't meant to endure these continuous, uh. Like sort of, you know, cultural, societal issues in addition to like, I'm just, I'm not that strong and I'm okay with saying that. So I think it was pretty dark, but it also was very enlightening for me is to be able to say like, I choose not [00:46:00] to take on that.

And what it learn, what I would learn is that I cannot care more about an organization than any of the executive leaders who are above me. Like if, you know, you wanna be able to strap a company on your back and improve it, but. You are not helping if you are the, you know, one of a very few who wanna do that.

Everybody has to collectively come together and change.

[00:46:22] Rhona Pierce: A hundred percent. Um, thank you for sharing that. Yeah. And the last question, have you ever shared job search advice that you knew wasn't universally true, but would go viral anyway?

[00:46:36] Tara Turk-Haynes: No.

I don't wanna go viral. I don't, I do not. You know why? Because viral doesn't necessarily mean impactful. I, you know what? I, I, I, I have seen advice go viral. Um, and a, and actually I can tell a really quick story about how I [00:47:00] thought I was helping someone on Twitter once. That was, uh, she said something really incorrect about.

Hiring managers and someone sent it to me as a screenshot and I didn't block the person's name out and I tweeted it. And while what I said was true, like hiring managers are the ones who are, 'cause they thought that the recruiters were the ones who were blocking access to hiring managers. We all know on the other end of the, we listen, getting a hiring manager to agree to make a decision or get on a, you know, get in a meeting with you is sometimes a, you know, a miracle within itself.

But I didn't block that person's name out and I apologized for that and I deleted it. So that went viral. I. A hundred percent. 'cause people were just like, you know, they like the drama.

[00:47:49] Rhona Pierce: Yeah, they

[00:47:49] Tara Turk-Haynes: like the drama. And I regret being able to share, like sharing that person's, uh, name. I would've blacked out the name, but the information I gave was still the same.

[00:47:58] Rhona Pierce: Alright, love [00:48:00] it. So you survived, plead the Fifth and you didn't plead to any, so Yay. I don't get a

[00:48:04] Tara Turk-Haynes: bartender. I don't get like a.

[00:48:10] Rhona Pierce: For all those, for all the the future sponsors of work, podcast. We need a bartender. We need a set. I have ideas, right? Let's make it happen.

[00:48:22] Tara Turk-Haynes: It can be a bartender. It doesn't have to be alcoholic. It can be mocktails. But listen, Andy Cohen has a bartender, so Exactly. Corona deserves one too.

[00:48:32] Rhona Pierce: Amazing. So again, as always, enjoy this conversation.

Where can listeners connect with you?

[00:48:38] Tara Turk-Haynes: Yeah, if you go to my website, equity activation.com, I share a lot on, uh, TikTok as well. A lot for me, not a lot for the average person, by the way. I'm Gen X, not Gen Z. Let's just be clear about our, our measurements there. Um, I'm at t Tara Hayes on most social media platforms as well.

Um, but yeah, equity [00:49:00] activations.com, and then you can sign up for my workplace resource that should launch in June.

[00:49:07] Rhona Pierce: Amazing, and I'll add all of those links in the show notes. Yes. Thanks again for being on the show.

[00:49:13] Tara Turk-Haynes: Oh, thanks for having me. I wish we could do this every single day. That would be so fun.

[00:49:17] Rhona Pierce: Yes, it would.

Thanks so much for listening. If you're enjoying the Work Flu Pod, share with someone who's changing how we talk about work or who should be. And hey, if this episode gave you ideas or inspiration, leave us a five star review. Reviews help other listeners find us, and honestly, it makes my day work Fluent is produced by Perceptible Studios.

Learn more about how we can help you use video to attract, engage, and retain qualified talent@perceptiblestudios.com. Thanks for listening, and I'll chat with you next week.