The Real Cost of Being HR Famous with Laurie Ruettimann

Laurie Ruettimann (00:00.13)
Anybody who's doing anything great is gonna be told that what they're doing is terrible, wrong, stupid, or misguided.

Anytime I hear people say this, I actually laugh because it's like, really, is this really what we're going to the stance that we're going to take?

But instead what I do is try to bring in a little bit of fear, a little bit of doubt, a little bit of joy. So having an opinion about women's rights, about human rights, about civil rights will still hit my bottom line. To this day, 20 years later, it still hits the bottom line. To be a good person in this world, there's so much unpaid labor involved. This is what I do in the world. I help people feel unashamed about being human.

to be HR famous until they realize it takes more than clever post and conference selfies. Lori Rudeman has spent nearly two decades shaping the conversation from CNN's recognition to global keynotes to her punk rock HR podcast. Today, we're pulling back the curtain on what it really takes to turn influence into a career. The money, the trade-offs and the parts that nobody sees. Lori, welcome to Workfluencer.

Well, it's my honor to be here. Thanks for asking.

Rhona Pierce (01:15.842)
I am so excited for this conversation. I've followed you for so many years. I mean, if anyone doesn't know who you are in the HR space, I'd be surprised. But for those of you who don't, can you give us the quick like 30 second elevator pitch?

My name is Lori Rudeman and I live here in Raleigh, North Carolina. I started out my career in human resources, but I was not very good at it and quickly left and found an adjacent path. And I am a writer and a speaker and a podcaster and a keynoter. And I talk about how to fix work.

amazing and you've been doing this for so many years.

Okay, all right, we don't have to emphasize how many years have been to you.

So take me back to like 2009 when CNN called you a top career advisor. Like what were you actually doing for money at that point? And like what was happening at that point when you started?

Laurie Ruettimann (02:18.83)
Sure, sure. Well, I need to go a little bit further back because in 2004, I took a job at Pfizer and long story about how I got there, but they said, okay, now that you have a job, you have to travel around the world and lay people off along with other HR generalist duties. And I did that for about three years and it really wore on my soul. And in 2004, right when I took that job, I knew it was a bad fit.

And I wanted to be a writer and I had this old ex-boyfriend who was blogging and I thought, geez, if that guy can blog, I should blog too. And I started out on Blogspot in 2004 while working at Pfizer, blogging about how terrible my job was and all the things I had to do, things that would get me fired legitimately back then and even today. But nobody knew what a blog was and I just was kind of invisible. But by the time I left Pfizer in 2007,

I had over a million people looking at my blog a month. Now it's crazy to even think about those numbers because like the internet in 2007 compared to where it is today is insane. So in 2007, I started writing for AOL. They had a website. It was like the third most visited website back then. And I gave out career advice and then I was hired by the conference board. by the time

CNN found me in 2009. I'd already been in a groove of being online and being on the internet and writing and speaking truth to power. And I was included in a roundup of other wonderful people like Lindsay Pollack and Alexandra Levitt. And I just was featured and my career really took off after then.

You think, is that the moment when you realize like, okay, I could do this full time, I should go all in, or is there a different moment?

Laurie Ruettimann (04:09.806)
was all in before then. I left Pfizer a couple of years before then. And I think it was once my blog really hit that million visitor month mark where I said, I can make some money on this. And at first I made a little bit of money. I don't make the money that I make today, but I was very early in a world where there weren't other people doing what I was doing. mean, Lindsay Pollock, Alexandra Levitt, a couple of others, but it was really kind of open.

and green and just vast out there. And I thought there's money to be had in someone advising both people and leaders on how to navigate what we now call the future of work. So that's what I did. And I was lucky enough that the conference board picked me up and I had an amazing editor named Vadim Lieberman who really taught me how to write. And I don't know the rest is kind of history, but it was not.

The 2009 CNN thing that gave me confidence. It's in my DNA to have confidence. And once I had a little bit of, you know, confirmation bias, so to speak, from all of those people coming in and looking at my old website, well, I just, I went with it.

I love that you say that it's in your DNA to have confidence. Where do you think that comes from?

Well, you I will say this, I am five feet tall and I have a lot of like little idiosyncrasies and quirks and also a life history that really made it easy for me to be invisible. But there was just something within me, a spark, don't know, foolishness where I said, no, this is not enough. I want more. And I pushed, even when the marketplace told me you can't have this or this is not for you, I didn't believe them. And I thought every morning that I wake up,

Laurie Ruettimann (05:55.372)
It's a do-over. I can start again. I can push a little bit harder. And that's been my life motto. Like every day you wake up and you're lucky enough to be reunited between your soul and your body. take a breath. You have an opportunity to start again, start fresh or continue. And that's what I've been doing, man, since 1975.

Hey, have you subscribed? Let's fix that. It's the easiest way to support this show. Has there ever been like, this is hard work. Has there ever been a specific time, especially in those early years where you thought like, this isn't going to work.

Yeah, you know, I right away when I started transitioning from writing online to actually dealing with executives was very quickly reminded of why I left the world of human resources, because if I didn't have any power and influence internally, I was not going to have a lot of power and influence as an HR consultant, as a blogger, as a writer or a speaker. And again, before the world of influence, there was the world of blogging.

And so if you think influencer is a much derided term, you should be called blogger and see how good that feels. Right. So I would show up somewhere to offer consulting and they would say, well, what do you know? You're just a blogger. I'm like, you're right. Okay. I obviously I'm just going to take your pay your money and not do anything here. So there were a lot of external messages from men in power, women in power, boomers in power who are like, you think you can teach us something? Go ahead and try.

But I did try and I persevered. And I have worked in my very early careers as an HR consultant with a lot of amazing brands. I worked with Penguin Random House. I worked with Google. I've worked with many large and awesome media companies and brought their HR team kind of into the 21st century around digital media and abundance thinking and human centered leadership. Like these were the things I was talking about 20 years ago.

Laurie Ruettimann (07:58.286)
I know people who worked with me then, well, they really consider it a blessing and pivotal in their career. So Rona, anybody who's doing anything great is going to be told that what they're doing is terrible, wrong, stupid, or misguided. And I had all those messages, but I just believed in myself and I kept pushing and I kept going. And honestly, people kept writing me checks even while insulting me. So I don't know why that is, but I took those checks and I just kept pushing.

Funny thing, and I've been having conversations with other people in your space that have been doing this who are very respected voices like you are. And then there's this whole thing in our industry where people are like, well, if you're not actively working in HR, then why should we be listening to you? And then there's me looking from the outside saying, well, someone's paying them. There has to be a reason why they are a respected voice.

Yeah, you know why everybody should listen to me? Because I'm right. Time and time again in my career, people have been like, you're dumb, this is stupid. And there are myriad examples, whether it's social media or human centered leadership or workers having power or executives swinging the pendulum back and really trying to stamp out that worker power where I have been right. Unfortunately, sometimes I'm first to market roadkill, but I am.

always right. I wish I had this kind of percentage of being right in my own personal life. I don't. But when it comes to the world of work and the world of human resources, I am correct. And I know I'm correct. And when I'm maybe incorrect, I learn and I grow from it. So why should people listen to me because I rarely get it wrong. And I'm early to really good and popular ideas. And I'm very confident about that. But I also had a proven track record better than analysts from Gartner.

Better than analysts from any other firm out there. I have seen the world of work. I know where it's going and the things I talk about today, like the intersection of HR and politics, like something called universal basic income are going to be hot button topics in the next five to 10 years. So I invite everybody to jump on this bandwagon because I know where I'm going.

Rhona Pierce (10:13.238)
I love that and I love that energy and honestly, it's true. Anytime I hear people say this, I actually laugh because it's like, really, is this really what we're gonna, the stance that we're gonna take? These people have come before us, they've put in the work, they have insights and they also, from what I know, stay current and like know what's happening inside organizations. How do you do that? How do you stay current?

Well, I have a wonderful community, a wonderful set of friends from my friend Minda Hartz to my friend Tim Sackett to Jennifer McClure. But also I'm out there interacting with amazing leaders and thought leaders all day long. And this started at an early part in my career. Way back in 2010, I was invited to keynote on a global stage at Microsoft for their employees to talk about the future of work.

And you know who spoke before me? Steve Ballmer, right? The old CEO of Microsoft. And it's not like I got on that stage because they just found me on the internet. My community includes a lot of really amazing, tremendous people who are probably like, don't drop my name. So for me, it's about going out there and not only making connections and expanding my own personal map, but listening to what they have to say, learning from people who are out there doing that actual work and like,

Figuring out, okay, what does this have to do for my community within human resources? But my community is bigger than HR. I talk to leaders, I talk to executives, but I also talk to real workers. And I think that's my secret sauce. People contact me all day long with stories. It's a wonderful honor to be a container for people who are talking about the true nature of work. It also could send me into therapy from time to time, but I am really connected.

with what's happening in the world of work, both good and bad. And I think that just gives me such an edge.

Rhona Pierce (12:12.898)
Yeah, I really think staying connected is is what and staying connected at all levels, not just in the HR bubble. So let's talk real numbers, right? What's the most that you've made in a year from this type of work?

pandemic years were difficult, but between my work with LinkedIn Learning, my own work as an author and a speaker, my podcast, my sponsorships, I have made a lot of money from this space and it is a gift. And when I don't make a lot of money, sometimes I'm like, what the hell is going on? But I recognize that other people are part of this community too. And I just trust that the money flows where it needs to flow and I'm always going to be fine. But I will say in the years where I didn't

earn a lot of money. Some of those years were my best years. Like I was writing and so maybe I'd made the choice to take myself off the road. Or I was creating content knowing that I was building something for some following years, know, like LinkedIn learning courses just don't write themselves. So I need to take time, take myself off the market, think about it. And right now for the past year, I've really been professionally, believe it or not, quiet.

I'm not out there speaking. I'm not out there in every city like Paducah or Oklahoma City or wherever, you know, I am building right now. And it comes at a cost to my family, to my savings. You know, when I'm not working, I'm not earning. So I make these choices and I make them deliberately knowing that the payoff will be real.

How many months of runway do you keep so that you can sleep at night?

Laurie Ruettimann (13:53.772)
I can sleep at night because I have a lot of things going on. First of all, I'm 50 years old and I always tell people, I don't necessarily make my money off of my income anymore. I make my money off of compound interest. I make my money off of investments. I have money in savings. I also have a husband who does well for himself and we have health insurance that's provided for by his wonderful organization, right? So I'm a little bit different. I also don't have children.

But when people come to me and say, Lori Rudeman, I want to do what you do, I'm like, keep your job and do it while you're working. Start off with a paycheck. Start slowly. And I also tell people, when you quit, you've got to have two years worth of runway, which is what I think you're asking, right? I would never quit a job today without being able to pay my bills for two years. And if you can't do that, don't quit. Don't quit.

It is so important for you to be inside and making money before you leave to be secure in your decision. Because when you get out there, the world is going to tell you what they told me, which is you're cute and you're delightful, but who the hell do you think you are? And you can hear those messages better when you've got a bank account full of cash.

Yes, 100 % agree on that one. But yeah, right now there's a lot of people who've been forced into this world because of all the layoffs and everything that's happened. But I always tell people, if you have a job, hang on to it for as long as you can. Build up those savings and still make that money, but build that up because it can get rough out here and it's like a roller coaster.

It is. And it's also part on the ego. When you feel like I do, that I'm so right about the future of work and I'm so right about where the world is going, and people keep telling you, nope, I don't want to hear it from you. You're not the right person for our organization. And it just helps you feel so much more secure in your opinion when you know you can buy groceries and when you know that you can give out gifts at family events or you can still take a vacation, right? Or whatever it is you and your family want to do.

Laurie Ruettimann (16:05.304)
So just think a savings account is part of the confidence. The other thing that's really important, and this is something I didn't do initially, is having full buy-in if you have a partner on what the plan is. You know, I left Pfizer and we moved down to North Carolina 18 years ago. And my husband's like, okay, this writing thing is cute and you're popular, but like, what is this? And we never had a conversation ever about where we were going with this.

And it just kind of happened organically. And there are days when he looks at me like, what, what is going on here? You're going out to film something in LinkedIn learning. Like, is this, is this really a thing? And I'm like, guess what it is, you know, and I've been talking about my next book with my husband. He's like, really, really? This is what we're doing. I'm like, yeah, this is what we're doing, you know, but we never had that one conversation where I'm like, I'm never going back. And I wish, I wish we would have, I wish I would have brought him on board a little bit sooner.

But I just, I don't know, I just am too independent, I guess. And this is like a flaw in my own personal marriage. So when people tell me I have a dream, I wanna be a speaker, I have a passion, like that's cool. Get your partner on board right away. This is like so incredibly important. And if they're not on board, that's okay. But like have the conversation about your dreams and your passions like as soon as possible.

That's amazing advice. What's the most expensive mistake that you've made in your career, either financially or reputationally?

Well, I write about this in my book, Betting on You. I decided instead of writing a book, instead of pursuing like a passion or a dream, I was going to be a tech CEO. Okay. And there was a startup that had formed and they were looking for someone to be the CEO. And I knew everybody. I was on board with the product. I was on board with the tech and I did it. I helped to launch a product that went nowhere.

Laurie Ruettimann (18:05.678)
and did nothing. And it's such a good idea. It's something I talk about all the time. I believe in this idea called the premortem, which is the opposite of an autopsy. You you do a project, like you build a website at work and it fails and everybody talks about why it fails. And you put all your findings in a binder and you put that binder on the figurative shelf. And then you go to build a website a couple of years later, nobody looks back at the project and why it failed. So there's a technique.

founded by a professor by the name of Dr. Gary Klein, where before you do anything, build a website, build a rocket ship, build a bridge, go on vacation with your partner. You sit down and you take about a minute or two and you list out all the serious, silly and insane ways as to how it's going to fail. You set a timer because you don't want to spiral. At the end of two minutes, you look at all the ways this thing is going to fail and then you make a plan.

to beat failure on those particular glitches. And if you do that, if you make that plan, you hit that low hanging fruit, you improve your chance of success by over 30%. So we built this little app that allowed teams to do that, to kind of beat failure. But the problem is in order to do this successfully, you need a human coach, a facilitator to just calm everybody's brain down and to make it.

to fail and to create that kind of cultural environment and an app won't do that. So we miss that in our own primordium. It was a very expensive mistake because I invested in it financially, I invested in time and energy and building a team. And not only that, I knew this was not right for me.

Like I love the idea. I still coach on it. I still advise it. I still bring the pre-mortem and a lot of my engagements, but I was avoiding the work that I needed to do, which was writing my book. So yeah, I've done a lot of things like that. I learned how to run marathons. You know, I traveled places. I've spent a lot of money avoiding the work that I needed to do. And Glitch Path is the name of the product. And that was my biggest and most costly mistake. So I think if you're

Laurie Ruettimann (20:22.178)
called to do the work of being a storyteller, being a thought leader, just fucking embrace it. Just embrace it. don't you, you know, I was chasing money and status and chasing this idea that I too could be a tech founder. Listen, anybody can be a tech founder. Like that doesn't take a lot of brain power or brain science, but man, I avoided doing the work that I really needed to do. And I set myself behind several years.

I'm listening to that story and I'm thinking, does Lori know me? Is she here right now? Because I do this whole avoiding doing the work that I have to do for doing something else. I think it's something very common when you're a creative and something like, and you hear all these voices or you have to do this, get a real job, blah, blah, blah. So it's easy, but I'm like, my gosh, what am I doing right now that's avoiding the work?

Uh-huh. Every bestselling writer and even any writer talks about how hard it is to actually write. And you will do whatever you can to be in the ideation phase and to be in love with your idea. Because the minute you write, you start to see the cracks. Good writing is good thinking. And I wanted to be in love with a book. I wanted to be in love with the idea of being an author. But when I sat down and actually looked at my idea, I was like, shit, this kind of sucks.

And I had to face that. I had to face my fears. And the first draft of anything is the worst draft. And I had to get that out and I had to take in feedback. And I'm really good at giving feedback, but not great at taking it, right? I had to go through all of that and it was tough and I wanted to avoid it. And I did a lot of things to avoid it, including glitch path. I also went to Cuba. Okay. I also went to New Zealand, not terrible. I did all kinds of things, you know,

grew out my hair. don't have anything I could do to avoid doing the work. But I'm so glad I got through that and wrote the book because betting on you I think is a gift I've given to the world and I still love that book. To this day, I love it.

Rhona Pierce (22:27.286)
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am so excited to be able to do a podcast takeover.

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Has there ever been a time, or do you have any example of like when being authentic, because you are brutally authentic, you say what you think online, and I love that about you, has it ever cost you a lucrative opportunity?

Wait a second. You think I'm authentic online? No way. No way, I am 10 % more authentic than the average person. That's it. That's all it takes. And it's a real good lesson for people out there who think they know me or think that I'm sharing something. It may feel cringe worthy some days and it may be like, wow, I can't believe she said that. But it's only 10%.

Laurie Ruettimann (23:57.576)
more than the average person. Because if I were 100 % my true self, nobody would like me. Nobody likes anybody who's 100 % their true self, right? The true self is not the best self. So what I try to do is cobble together a personality where I'm helpful, where I'm a little bit honest about what I'm thinking and feeling and experiencing. But all of the day in, day out rigmarole of being human,

It's too much for us to take for ourselves. Why would we want that from a stranger online? And so I try to find that right balance where people feel like they know me and they can connect with me, which is authentic, but it's not the full expression of who I am as a human being. Like I don't publish my poop schedule online, right? I don't talk about what I had for breakfast or when I had indigestion or like all of the things that make us fully and completely human because that would be a little gross.

But instead, what I do is try to bring in a little bit of fear, a little bit of doubt, a little bit of joy. You know, I just recently put out there that I watched the Paddington movies for the first time. I don't know if you've seen them, I have not. They are delightful. They are super cute. But because my brain is broken, sometimes when I feel extreme joy, I cry. And those movies made me cry, right? And to even

communicate the full expression of what I was feeling. I could never do that, right? But what I can do is talk about it a little bit and it makes me feel more like myself and it makes people feel like they can connect with me. So I just want to set the record straight that when you as a viewer feel like somebody is being authentic or their true selves, well, no, mean, people have bad days or they have quirks, right? So you never know anybody until you live with them, until you spend a lot of time with them and even then.

Do really know somebody? Like I've known my husband 30 years. I'm like, do I really know him? Does anybody really know anybody? It's true, right? The more you get to know somebody, the more you see like they are a Pandora's box. So I just wanted to put that out there, but has it ever bitten me in the butt consistently, regularly? Like earlier this year, I was working with a benefits company. Who knew me? Who signed me up?

Laurie Ruettimann (26:21.112)
to do a deal, like a significant five figure deal, gave me a deposit. And then their CEO got wind of it and he's like, nah, I don't like her, get our money back. Like, holy smokes. And the answer is, you're not getting that deposit back. That's what contracts are for. Buddy, you gotta be kidding me. And the reason why I can't share their name is because they signed a contract. So thank goodness for contracts, right? But even to this day, people who are...

are like aware of my social media presence are like surprised. I don't get it. But yeah, yeah, being myself, which I always am or I try to be, still gets me to this day. So thank goodness I don't need that money. I could say no to the rest of that money, right? But man, it still comes at a cost. having an opinion about women's rights, about human rights, about civil rights will still hit my bottom line.

to this day, 20 years later, it still hits the bottom line. So yeah, yeah, it happens to me too.

you have any regrets about that?

Well, my husband has regrets. This is the honest part, right? This is the part where he's like, did we sign up for this and can't you like, can't you just reel it in a little bit? And the answer is I do reel it in a little bit, right? You know, if I really said what I thought about this world, I would get no money. So I mean, I regret that I can't be fully authentic. I regret that people think I'm out there being my true self when I'm really only like 52 % of myself out there.

Laurie Ruettimann (27:56.214)
And I regret that even holding myself back is not good enough for these corporations. I regret having to participate in capitalism. Like I'm real bitter about that, which is why I pushed so hard for universal basic income. Because if I just had a regular stream of money coming in, nobody would see me. I would just go foster kittens, right? But that's not the way the world works. So yeah, I have a lot of regrets about myself, about the way the world is structured. And I just wake up every morning and I try to do my best.

I love how you mentioned that you're only 10 % more real than other people. And I love that self-awareness because it's true. It's very easy for us to say like, oh, you're very authentic and people say it, but as I'm listening to you, it's like, yeah, a hundred percent. Like you don't like, no one, can't even think my husband knows a hundred percent of what I'm thinking about half of the things that I talk about and care about.

And it's not anybody else's responsibility to know us. And so in the work of being an influencer, in the work of being HR famous, I've been on a parallel path where I've tried to understand who I am and what my limitations are and what my capabilities are. Because if I don't know myself, I won't know how to present myself to the world. And you know, when people interact with me, I am just really a mirror.

Even in real life, but especially online, I'm an avatar. They think they know me and it gives them permission. And frankly, I don't mind this at all, but it gives them permission to ask the questions that may be a little bit embarrassing. It gives them the opportunity to admit something that might be shameful or weird or quirky about their careers, to ask for help, to ask for advice. This is what I do in the world. I help people feel unashamed about being human. I help

People live extraordinary, ordinary lives, right? People who follow me don't wanna be HR famous. They just want to provide for their families and enjoy their lives a little bit more. People who follow me don't wanna be business famous in the world of procurement or marketing. They just wanna know, how do I wake up a little bit happier in the morning? They don't have crazy expectations, but they just don't wanna throw themselves off of a bridge. And many people have expressed that to me, right? That feeling of just being desperate.

Laurie Ruettimann (30:20.982)
and sad and lonely and feeling isolated. So I create a container for them to feel safe. And I've had to do the work of asking internally, is this what I want to do? Am I strong enough to do this? Am I responsible enough to do this? Am I wise enough to do this? And it's been a journey in my own life, right? To ask myself.

Can you do this work without being a clinical psychologist? And sometimes I can, and sometimes I can't, and I have to know that boundary, but it is definitely the work of a lifetime. And when I do this public work, if I didn't do the internal work of being stronger, more thoughtful, more grounded in who I am and what I believe in, I would be a failure to everybody. I would be ineffective. So while I'm out there talking about like universal basic income, I'm also in...

trauma therapy, right? I'm in my own work that I'm doing just to be a better human being for myself. And hopefully that work pays dividends also externally. But even if it doesn't, I have to do that work for myself.

How much? We've talked about money a bit. How much unpaid labor goes into maintaining Lori Rudum and the brand? what? Walk me through like a typical week and what people don't see.

First of all, I want to tell you that back in 2009 was the first time I ever heard the word HR famous. And it came at the Shurm conference in New Orleans. I was there with a bunch of people and I was on stage talking about what is essentially being a digital creator, but we didn't have that language. So was talking about HR blogging, right? You know, and I stepped off the stage and I met someone in our industry who said to me,

Laurie Ruettimann (32:09.932)
You're not famous, but you're HR famous. And in that started my awareness of the emotional labor, right? Because much of the work that I do is unpaid. It's without being asked for my consent. And it's because I'm empathetic and I have a heart. So when someone reaches out to me and says, I just got laid off, I don't know what to do.

feel desperate, I feel alone. I haven't told my wife yet. What do you think I should do? What am I going to do? Not answer that? No way. No effing way. Of course I'm going to answer that. Now, the degree to which I answer that has changed over the years, right? But even in just reading that email, that's unpaid emotional labor. But you know what? By the way, this is what we do as women in general, right? This is what we do as

partners, this is what we do as just human beings. To be a good person in this world, there's so much unpaid labor involved. Again, which is why I believe in universal basic income and universal healthcare and all of the things. Because if many more of us had a floor, just to make sure we didn't drop.

We could do this. We could be more available. We could be in community with one another. But because there's such an economic pressure out there to pay our bills, to make our nut, you know, all of it, we can't. We can't be available. And so I happen to be lucky enough to be available. But much of the work I do is unpaid. Like 90 % of it is unpaid.

Yeah, I love having these conversations where people are sharing what really happens behind what it takes to do this.

Laurie Ruettimann (34:02.286)
Yeah. So wait, I do want to say, so everybody out there, forgive me if I've been somewhere and haven't shown up 100%. But I'm tired, right? That's the other piece. I mean, if we're really truly being authentic about this, I am so exhausted and so tired by a lot of other people's stories that sometimes I just I just am not perfect, right? I just show up and I'm like, what now? What's going on?

Who are you? Do I know you? Okay. And like, truly, I do my best, but there are these moments where I'm just absolutely exhausted. And I'll tell you why. Because I hear stories of people who are in abusive relationships more than once a week. I hear stories of people who've been laid off and are triggered and remembering the time their parent kidnapped them in a custody dispute. I'm hearing stories of people

who have also been kidnapped in other situations. Believe it or not, the amount of kidnapping stories I've heard is more than one hand. It's not quite two hands, but it's been there. I have been sent porn. I have been sent threatening notices. It's just crazy the amount of stuff that I get inbound.

So opening my email, opening my LinkedIn messages on any given day is like navigating landmines. The amount of disgusting voice messages I've been sent on LinkedIn, it's horrendous. Like people do and say the most random things to the HR famous lady that I don't want to be regular famous. Like I don't want that burden, right? So when someone says to me like, what's it like to be Lori Ruderman?

It's complicated. Like it's weird, but I don't know. Like what would I rather do? Have a nine to five job? So it's like, let's ground this. You know, like it's still pretty good because no one's telling me what to do.

Rhona Pierce (35:58.936)
So a lot of the people that listen to Workfluencer are either on the path or aspiring or want to be full-time creators. Some may want to be HR famous. After everything that you've shared today, what do you tell them?

I tell them that more tears are shed over answered prayers than unanswered ones. That's a Truman Capote quote, and that has been true in my life. I was asked to do a reality show back in 2010, and we filmed a pilot. There was a sizzle reel, and it was me, this guy named Sean Hollenbeck, who's a creator and a comedian and just an amazing human being, and a guy by the name of Walter Bond. And so we do this.

reality TV show where we're going to take people who have just endured the worst aspects in their lives and need a job and we give them like a makeover and we look at their resume and we give them a motivational talk and we go out there and we set them free and they get a job. Well, I did one of those one episode and it never made the light of day. Thank God. And I said, I no longer want to be part of this project.

Like I saw that and I was like, this is embarrassing because number one, that's not how the world of work works. And number two, I don't want to be the mean HR lady who's judging people and giving them mean, harsh, Jillian Michaels like career advice, right? This is not for me. And so I said no. And the project never took off after that because I pulled myself out of it. And I don't, I don't know if they never got another HR lady, but like.

Thought I wanted that kind of stuff in my life. And when I did it, I was like, no, this is not aligned with my values. So before you think you want to go on stage, you want to follow your passion, make sure you just don't want like therapy. Make sure you just don't want to resolve your traumas from your childhood because it turns out like, what are the things I want in this world? Well, I want financial security and safety, but

Laurie Ruettimann (38:02.306)
I wanted to feel loved. wanted to feel helpful. I wanted people to look at me and go, she's a responsible adult and I could just do that myself. I've learned, I just learned how to do that myself. Like I know I'm helpful. I know I'm loved and people do look at me and they do admire me. And it's because of what I've done, the knowledge that I've contributed to the way I've been helpful in the world. It's not because I'm on some fucking reality show. What a stupid thing I thought.

I'm glad I didn't get what I wanted.

Amazing. So if you've ever watched the show, you know, there's a segment at the end. I do multiple segments and I'm testing out a new one. It's called Time to Confess. So we've talked about what it really takes to be HR famous. But right now I'm going to throw a few rapid fire questions at you. No speeches, no PR spin, quick answers. Are you ready?

Wait, I'm not a PR spin kind of lady. So you're going to get what you get.

All right, so what parts of your public persona exhaust you the most?

Laurie Ruettimann (39:05.4)
I think it looks like I'm chronically online because I am sometimes chronically online and that's exhausting. I need to find a way to pull back.

What's your actual take on the new generation of HR, Tik Tokers and LinkedIn influencers?

I don't know them, so I don't have a take. I'm not paying attention.

What's the shadiest thing you've seen happen in an HR conference?

God, mean, it's boring. know, shady is often boring. So have I seen the hookups? Yeah. Have I seen people being drunk and high and crazy? Absolutely. I think the shadiest thing though is that we're not honest about it.

Rhona Pierce (39:46.018)
What's it going to take for us to be honest about that?

What does it take humanity to be honest about it? I'm sure people who go, and I know this because I've been to them, I've been a keynote speaker at marketing conferences, finance conferences, I've been at construction events, right? All of it, logistics. People are just shady in general. There's something about being away from home, being in a container where you think you're around a bunch of trusted people and alcohol and a lack of sleep.

that our values get a little muddled. Hey, I've been there. You think I'm been drunk and insane at conferences? People have stories about me. And I think it's just part of human nature. And it's very brave to talk about these things. And not a lot of people are brave. Special souls are brave. That's why we love them. And that's why we admire them.

So I've loved this conversation. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think listeners should know?

listeners should really know that this thing we're having right now with thought leaders and influencers is time bound and limited. So you shouldn't aspire to be business famous or HR famous or even to be a keynote speaker. You want to do something extraordinary with your life. Figure out where this whole thing is going in five years and go do that. But unless you're rooted

Laurie Ruettimann (41:08.142)
and the impulse to be helpful for the sake of being helpful, not because you want someone to love you, you want someone to care for you, you someone to admire you, you're not going to last. I think I have lasted in this industry because I truly want to be useful. I truly want to be helpful, not because it makes me feel better about myself, but because I want to change the world. I want to fix the world. This is my actual calling in life. So figure out where all the shit is going. Go do that, but root it.

and helpfulness and that's how you're successful. That's what I believe. That's what I'm trying to do. So you asked me about this generation of Tik Tokers like.

I'm talking for that. I'm focused on what's next. It's cute. All that is really great. But where are we going in five years when work ceases to be work? Where are we going to be in five years when people are project-based, suffering, getting gigs? That gig workforce that we talked about 10 years ago, that's actually going to start to happen now.

The world of HR, is that even relevant when everybody's just a project worker, just a contractor? I give a shit about the world of HR. I give a shit about the world of people. And I think if you root yourself in that, that's where you're going to be successful. So pay attention to people, not industry.

Amazing advice. Where can listeners connect with you?

Laurie Ruettimann (42:34.552)
Well, please don't connect with me. A lot of people connecting with me. I would love for people to find me sure they can connect with me on my website, lorirutaman.com on LinkedIn. They can watch all my courses, right? But I actually want to shine the light on some people who are doing really great work. Okay, you ready? Yes. You can connect with me, but I think you should connect with my friend Ashley Heard, H-E-R-D. She's doing something called the manager method and she is

it and killing it in amazing ways. Nobody needs me to tell them to go check out Minda Hearts, but if I'm someone who's thinking about the future of work, she just wrote this really amazing book about trust. Like, hear my voice and go get on Minda Hearts, right? I think if there's someone I could connect you with, like who's really truly inspiring me right now,

This is going to be silly because he's not looking for this kind of attention, but it is my friend Carlos Escobar. He thinks about people and work and systems in a really amazing way. So every once in a while, he'll put something on LinkedIn. He's got a really great Instagram feed. He's got an awesome blog. He doesn't do it enough. Go check out my friend Carlos Escobar because he inspires me when he writes, I pay attention.

amazing. And we will definitely add all of those links in the show notes. Thanks again for being on workflow answer today.

It was my pleasure and my honor. Thanks for inviting me.

Rhona Pierce (44:10.03)
Thanks so much for listening. If you're enjoying the Workfluencer pod, share it with someone who's changing how we talk about work or who should be. And hey, if this episode gave you ideas or inspiration, leave us a five-star review. Reviews help other listeners find us. And honestly, it makes my day. Workfluencer is produced by Perceptible Studios. Learn more about how we can help you use video to attract, engage, and retain qualified talent at perceptiblestudios.com. Thanks for listening.

and I'll chat with you next week.