How to Have REAL Conversations About Race at Work with Zach Nunn

Rhona Pierce (00:00.088)
Have you ever had someone on the part that was kind of in that like performative side of things?

Yeah, I did a couple of times, right? And sometimes we like, we'll challenge and like, we'll address it and like have the conversation and we move forward. Or sometimes we just don't release the podcast. Like there was somebody who we had on and they're from a very large tech company, but they were basically lamenting about how, you know, black people just need to figure it out on their own. And there's sometimes when it's like, you know, this is sounding a little too Thomas Sowellish or Fox News. I don't want to promote this on my platform.

force to release every episode. You have to understand that responsibility.

Anybody who is controlling a microphone and inviting anyone to a stage, they have an immense amount of responsibility to make sure that the people at their platform are in line with their values and are actually providing a net positive to the audience that they're speaking to.

Everyone thinks podcasting is just this fun thing, but it's like, you're pretty much a journalist.

Zach Nunn (00:59.668)
I agree with you. But here's the challenge and that is that journalism as a practice is

A lot of workplace content plays it safe. Generic tips, polished soundbites, nothing that rocks the boat. But Zach didn't start a podcast to play it safe. He built a platform to have the conversations most people avoid about race, identity, power, and the systems that shape our experience at work. From interviewing elected officials to advising companies on authentic storytelling.

Zach uses content to challenge norms, not just reflect them. Today, we're digging into how podcasting became his most powerful tool for equity driven change and what it takes to create content that invites truth, not just applause. Zach, welcome to Workfluencer.

Rhona, thank you so much for that introduction. And let me say something, you know, as somebody who does podcasting, the way that you do the intro and are able to like look at the camera, like while you're doing your thing is so sharp. Like my gosh, that's excellent. I'm excited to be here. I was excited before, but like now I'm like extra locked in, you know, like that was great.

thank you. Thank you. That's the magic of my favorite Elgato teleprompter. It's like changed everything for me.

Zach Nunn (02:17.23)
I'm about to cop that. Like, let's talk off mic about that.

All right. So for folks who are not familiar with you, can you just give us that 30 second elevator pitch? Who is that?

Leo, I am a founder, a father, a husband passionate about workplace fairness and employee and customer experience. And I realized that through the work that I do at Living Corporate.

Amazing and just tell us a bit about living corporate like what is living corporate?

Yeah, Living Corporate is an experiences management company. We support organizations building fair experiences through storytelling, data transformation, and e-learning.

Rhona Pierce (03:00.014)
Amazing. You are one of the, I say OG podcasters because anyone doing it for a long time is an OG podcaster. And you've interviewed everyone from like elected officials to workplace influencers. We like to call them workfluencers around here. But what made you decide to start podcasting about topics that others might shy away from?

Yeah, I just was getting exhausted from just being one of the onlys in the space and looking for someone to talk about the realities of my experience and constantly being told, we can't talk about that at work. Constantly being ushered into a different space where even in that space, I was told we can't talk about that at work. So just very much so wanted to have those conversations because I could tell that there was a drought.

of authentic frank discussions around what it really means to navigate the world of work as someone on the margins.

I love it. When a topic feels risky, how do you decide whether to push forward or to pull back?

It's a good question. I think I had to come to peace with the fact that there's risk in everything. I don't know if like, if a risky topic is ever like in my calculus. I think more so is like, Hey, is this topic real? And is it impacting people? If the topic is impacting people, then we're going to have to have that conversation. And that's really how I make the decision as to if I want to engage or lean into a discussion.

Rhona Pierce (04:37.314)
I love it. And I kind of had a feeling you would say something along those lines because you touch on topics that are like, some people are like, ooh, we don't talk about that, but that's all what your podcast is about. Like talking about the things that most people don't want to talk about, but like you said, are real and they're impacting people. So they need to be talked about. Do you remember that moment? Like when you realized that your podcast could be more than just a passion project, could actually

influence how people think about equity at work.

Yeah, you know, it was interesting. We, this was probably like about a year in, right? Cause for those obviously who don't know, like podcasting, I think there's this assumption of podcasting that like, if you start tomorrow, then like you'll get, you know, thousands of listeners in a day. And it's like, no, it takes time. Like that's like, I'll tell most people like it takes about a year of like being consistent just to get up to like a couple hundred listeners. Like let alone like,

thousands or tens of thousands. Like that can take time, plus marketing and strategic work, blah, blah, blah. But for me, was about probably like a year or so in, we kept on getting messages like to our inbox, as well as like private messages, as well as like folks would just like see me on LinkedIn and send me like part of the interview, like, I heard you on this podcast, I heard you on your podcast, but people would talk about how much the podcast was helping them.

learn and understand these are like aspirational allies, right? Or just like, that's my way of saying white and white adjacent people at work. We're like, Hey, this helping me be a better leader. It's helping me X, Y, and Z. And then there will be folks who are in the margins who would say, Hey, this has helped me navigate and like me feel like I'm not alone. Right? So those were the moments for me early where I was like, okay, this is, this isn't just a hobby or something that I come just kind of like screaming into the ether.

Zach Nunn (06:36.76)
There's something here that's blessing and helping and encouraging people.

Be honest, you're probably coming back next week anyway. Make it official, like and subscribe. It helps other people find workfluencer and it gives me one more reason to keep doing this. I like that and I love that term of aspirational allies because it's true. Like a lot of people want to do it. You're in the stages of like, ooh, I'm aware that something is happening because I wasn't aware because it wasn't impacting me. Now I'm aware. Now I want to do something.

So when you're interviewing someone like about race, identity, or like systems of exclusion, what makes a conversation feel productive instead of performative?

Ooh. So what makes the conversation feel productive is if we're being, if we're having like an actual conversation and you're not like reading off of cue cards or like saying what I think you kind of think we want to hear, right? If we're being transparent about like how challenging some of these topics are, if we're like leaning into like the nuance of a topic, if we are also like challenging and speaking to the power brokers within a topic.

and not necessarily just holding people on the margins accountable. So like as an example, if we're talking about systems of inequity or systems of unfairness, and we don't really talk about the role that executive leaders play in sustaining and upholding those systems, and all we're talking about is like, we try to like really focus or over engage on what black and brown people or women or queer people need to be doing to like better navigate the systems.

Zach Nunn (08:17.634)
then to me that's not really an authentic conversation. Like that's a safe way to have a discussion about these things because it's always easy to like individualize these topics. I think systemic conversations are scary because they challenge the people that can actually, that can actually like threaten your livelihood. Whereas like it's all, but you also though can be performative in those conversations when you,

take on talking points and almost become like a proxy of power by just kind of being like, okay, well, if people just learned how to do Excel better and pulled up their pants and whatever, whatever, whatever, then they would be successful. And it's like, that's not a productive discussion. In my view, that's not an authentic conversation. That's not an intellectually honest conversation. So I'm always looking to push and frankly, like I'm always going to lean and hold like the

the leadership teams, the power holders more accountable than I am the individual. Like yes, there's things that we need to be doing in the world of work to help us grow and navigate. that's the truth. And we're going to talk about those things. But if you think that I'm going to try to act like it's 50-50 or even like majority of responsibility of like the person who is not in power, we're probably not going to have a good conversation.

Have you ever had someone on the pod that was along those lines and like, yeah, have you ever had someone on the pod that was kind of in that like performative side of things?

Yeah, I did. A couple of times, right? And sometimes like we will challenge and like we'll address it and like have the conversation and we move forward. Or sometimes we just don't release the podcast. Like there was somebody who we had on and they were like, and they were from a very large tech company, a very large tech company. It's not gonna be just laid off for a ton of people too. But they were basically lamenting about how...

Zach Nunn (10:17.422)
you know, black people just need to figure it out on their own. Like they don't need to like be looking for help from him. He was very frustrated and annoyed at the prospect of like being seen as a point of support and resource that everyone just needs to figure it out on their own. Like, and I said, okay, so do you think that's like, I said, so, so then I said, I remember when he said that I was like, I was like, yeah, I mean, I said, I could, I said, think I can empathize with the idea that like, if you're a black executive being hired, that like, you know, you weren't.

If you're a black, if you're a, if you're an executive that's being hired to do this job, to do a particular job, I understand why you're saying it's not fair to then be, to then like all these other things to be foisted upon you. Like, you know, like this idea of being like the activist internal organizer. I said, I understand that. I said, at the same time, I said, I would think that the executive leadership team bears responsibility in that and creating an environment and providing resources to those varying employees. So actually do have.

the point of support that they need. And he was like, I mean, yeah, but I'm just saying period. Like you just got to figure it out on your own. I was like, okay. And we kind of went back and forth for a second there. And I said, cool. And then we wrapped it up like maybe 10 minutes later. And I knew right after I said, it's sitting right there. My little squad cast thing. I'm looking, I can probably pull it up right now. I need to, this reminds me, cause I needed, I need to clean my squad cast.

I'm go ahead and I'm to delete that really soon. So yeah, I mean, it happens. It happens sometimes we're able to have a dialogue and work through it. And then there's a, yeah, that's fair. That's true. Then there's sometimes when it's like, you know, this is, this is sounding a little too Thomas soulish or Fox news. So, or Clarence Thomas ish. I don't want to, I don't want to promote this on my platform.

That is so, so interesting that you say that you just simply don't promote that platform or that person. I think a lot of podcasters forget that you have the power by giving these people like

Rhona Pierce (12:21.898)
space for other people to listen to them. And I've had episodes that I haven't released, not because of anything like that, because I don't my topics are a bit different. But because when I felt like this isn't going to be of service to anyone, and you just don't release it, you're not forced to release every episode. You have to understand that responsibility. So like, there's this balance, right? Like between in podcasting between being the voice.

and like creating space for others. What responsibility do you think that podcast hosts have when it comes to who gets amplified and how it's framed?

I mean, I think that anybody who is controlling a microphone and inviting anyone to a stage, be that a podcast stage, like a public speaking stage, some type of panel, they have an immense amount of responsibility to make sure that the people at their platform are aligned with their values and are actually providing a net positive to the audience that they're speaking to. I think the challenge

is that we're in this late stage capitalist society where clicks and views are the means by which a lot of people get ad revenue and money. So it's, it is, we are incentivized to platform folks sometimes who are saying ridiculous things or controversial things for the sake of controversy sake, outright lies to appeal to various bases.

because we know that that's going to get engagement because everything is really built towards engagement. So it's challenging for and it's rare for like authentic, transparent, genuinely helpful, positive content to penetrate and quote unquote do well, right? In terms of clicks and views and things of that nature, right? So it's, it's much more work. It's not impossible. It's just more work. And so I like,

Zach Nunn (14:32.172)
I can realize like the systemic challenge there. and my bad. And it's like less emotional labor to just let people come on your platform and say whatever nonsense they want. Right. But no, we have a tremendous amount of responsibility to make sure that we're researched about the people we bring on the platform, to make sure that we're reviewing the content effectively, that we're providing appropriate pushback and you know, that we ultimately, what we ultimately determined to publish or release.

to the public. It's, like, we own all of that, I would say.

I think when I started podcasting is when I really realized, because I'm a huge reality TV fan, and every time there is a reunion, you hear someone say like, it was the edit, or it was this, it was this. And I used to be like, whatever, why did you say this? Because if you didn't say this, wouldn't have been able to be edited. as I because when I started, I edited my own episodes, I was like,

I could totally piece together sentences and things and make people say something totally different than what they actually said, or I could frame things differently. like, I'm sure that happens because there's even when I'm, Chad GPT and I are BFFs when it comes to like promoting the episodes and stuff like that. And it would tell me like, this is a good like post. And it's like, and I always am like,

Did they actually say that? And it's like, we have such a responsibility and such a like, I feel such a responsibility to my guests to make sure that one, the people I'm bringing are not, like you said, just talking nonsense or whatever and not aligned. But then when we edit the episodes, and now I have a team, my team now edits it, right? When we edit the episodes to make sure that we're,

Rhona Pierce (16:28.502)
maintaining the integrity of what the person said and what they stand for. It's like everyone thinks podcasting is just this fun thing, but it's like you're pretty much a journalist.

You are a journalist. I think like, but here's the challenge in that is that journalism as a practice is is shifting and dying in a lot of different ways, especially in terms of what we see in like the mainstream media. So yeah. So the art of that and like this idea of like, hey, no, you are charged with being objective. You are charged with being fact based. You are charged with like presenting the truth.

to your platform as a journalist. Like those things are lost in 2025, but I agree with you.

It's the dopamine, these platforms rewarding stuff. like, how do you prepare for interviews that like touch on polarizing or like sensitive issues?

Yeah. I love, you know, one, I'm a big like researcher on people. So like, love like looking up someone's journey, their personal, their background, understanding kind of like the, the why behind the what that they're doing. Cause most of them corporate's content is interviews, right? Like we're not really, there's a couple of special episodes where I might just be talking to the mic, but most times we're talking to somebody. So I definitely want to understand my, my, my subject.

Zach Nunn (17:59.298)
first. And then on top of that, I want to make sure I'm doing my own research on whatever the topic is. I'm going to look at like the history of that topic and the legislations around that topic, what pop culture is saying around that topic, and then make sure that I'm clear and sharp on what my position is on that topic and where I'm most curious. I think what makes a really good podcast episode for me is when I show up as curious as possible. Like if I'm like, if I come in on just some

Okay, well, I kind of already know this. Let me just like kind of go through the motions. Like the audience can tell that, right? But if you show up curious, then not only like not only does not only do you walk away learning something, but like your your guest, they can pick up on your curiosity. And that's going to make them more engaged to because they're like, oh, wow, this person really wants to have a conversation with me as opposed to this person just talking. They're just reading off of, you know, a Google document or whatever.

Yeah. Have you ever changed your own mind about your perspective on something during an interview?

You know, yes. Because I remember one time I was talking to Howard Bryant, who is a he's a he's a journalist. He's one of the one of the one of the most prolific black sports journalists of all time. Like it's like like he's in like rarefied air for real. But he also is a contributor for for NBC. I'm sorry, NBC, ESPN, as well as he's written some things for NPR. Like he's done a lot of really incredible work.

in the sports journalism space. But we were talking about Trumpism, and this was early, like this was years ago. And, you know, I think I had a different view of like, if Trump would win or not, I just couldn't believe that he would win. you know, Howard Bryan's also like in his late 50s or 60s, Howard Bryan has grown, like he's like my parents age. And so he just provided just a different historical perspective that helped me understand like,

Zach Nunn (20:05.292)
voting patterns and the history of this nation and how white folks vote. And I was like, okay. And that helped me, that grounded me a bit more in just my own expectations. And he also, I think it's because again, he's older, he was able to give me context as it pertained to like, hey, like a lot of things could change if the majority wanted things to change. And like,

So it's not that he didn't, wouldn't say he made me more cynical, but it was a really grounding discussion. And it gave me a lot more practical, just facts in terms of like, okay, here are the systems that we're doing. That was early in my podcasting journey for sure.

amazing and it's a it's a change. mean that that mentality. I also was like so at that point I couldn't even vote so I'm an immigrant right at that point I was I only had a green card I wasn't a US citizen but I remember telling my husband like who's white like you're gonna vote the right way right he's like yeah of course of course right and like I remember thinking like that's not gonna happen and telling my dad

who is a black man in his seventies, yeah, maybe at that time, late sixties, who is from Panama, but Panama has this specific thing where the US was there and like, he lived a totally different reality for my mom, because he lived in the canal zone area, which was run by the US government versus my mom, who was outside of that area. So he lived the whole Jim Crow and all of that mentality. And he's like,

no, no, no, he's going to win. And this is why. And I was like, huh. And that really helped prepare me for the inevitable which happened. But it's like, I was like you, maybe because we're younger, maybe because we hadn't seen the same things, like seeing it in a different way. So that's interesting that for you that happened in like podcast interview with a guest of yours.

Zach Nunn (22:13.006)
100%. 100%. I think it just comes down to just really being able to engage with folks who've been here longer than you. That's important. I think it's really easy for younger folks. We kind of think that everything we've seen, we're the first people to see these things or have these ideas or thoughts. it's like, you're standing on the legacy and shoulders and thought leadership of hundreds, if not thousands of people that have come before you and not only thought about these things,

But I thought about these things in a much more nuanced and like complete way, much more dimensionality than in depth than you are. And so it's important to just engage people and talk to folks on and off the mic so that you can have that perspective and like continue to grow it.

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Rhona Pierce (23:42.754)
So let's change gears a little bit. Let's talk about how you partner with companies. Like when you're working with organizations on amplifying voices, how do you help them tell authentic stories without it feeling performative?

Yeah, so we're we always are looking to have like just like just like you're having a conversation with someone after work over some drinks. That's the the vibe and tone that we want to we want to get to. And when you talk to somebody after work, you're not going to really shoot a lot of bail to Charles and HR or Rhonda and procurement like, hey, Charles, what's the bullshit? We don't say that. You know what I'm saying? If Rhonda is tripping, we don't say that. And

That's okay, right? Like, and I think it's, and I think for us, when we partner with brands and we're talking to them about their journey or talking about the work that they're doing, because typically what we do is we will say, hey, look, we want to amplify your company, but we don't want to just do it through talking about how great your company is. We want to spotlight them through your people. So let's sit down with your VP of strategy or your COO.

or your CHRO or your CEO or your director of X, and Z. And let's talk to them, let's talk with them about navigating your company. And so in that, there's going to be, there's going to be some good things, some bad things, some ugly things, but we're going to share it. And we're going to talk about it in a way that's just approachable and honest. And like, so as long as we're honest, and that means like through the story, it means talking about even some things that maybe weren't perfect.

And that's okay because people know that your company isn't perfect. Like if they know it's not perfect. So we can have an honest conversation about navigating all of it, but there's a beauty in bringing all of it together. And I think as long as we're honest and we have conversations with leaders where we're talking about, like where do things get better? What things are you working on and looking to change at insert company? Like the answers to those types of questions, they really help bring.

Zach Nunn (25:55.586)
those conversations like to the front door of a lot of people.

So it's really all in the direction that you're giving them. Yes, you're getting the answers from them. And it's true. It's not scripted. But it's how you're extracting this information from them. When brands try to do DEI storytelling, let's just use that term, what's usually missing?

Hmm.

Zach Nunn (26:28.014)
Two things. mean, one, I believe it's honesty. So often, DI storytelling is, look at this black or brown person or queer person or woman that we brought in from the storm and look how wrinkly and dirty and wet they were. Let me show you how we cleaned them up. And now they're doing this new thing that's so far beyond anything even we could have imagined that they did. It's very patronizing and it's almost like on some, I don't know, it's just.

It's really insulting, Whereas like, whereas I just a good story is about like, Hey, like here's the actual experience of this person. James, James really was overqualified and has been overqualified from most of his jobs. He was able to come in here. We may be under hired James. We get, finally gave him space to do his job.

And he outperformed and surprised and showed us how X, Y, Z, look at this thing he built because we backed up and gave him space to do it. Or, you know, look, our leadership team, we haven't had any black women in our ranks before. That was the mistake on our part. We finally were able to hire Rona. And after some leadership meetings and sessions, because we didn't understand the dynamics of working with anyone that isn't a white man.

This is what we've been able to do and this is where we're still being challenged and how we're going to continue to grow and get better. So like it's the honesty of the accountability that a lot of brands, again, they present themselves as these like heroes washing little oily ducks with the dove soap. And it's like, that's not what y'all are. Like y'all, a lot of times y'all hire these people and you get lucky.

You didn't expect for them to come in and be superstars at all. And in spite of you, they oftentimes overperform. They're carrying things that you'll never know. But they showed up and they did an excellent job. And that's so often like the reality of these stories. So many black and brown people I talked to navigating the world of work, like within like majority white spaces, they're doing the jobs of like three or four people.

Zach Nunn (28:52.718)
They're typically under, they're typically, if they're like a manager, they should be like a senior director. And if they're a director, they should be like a VP or a chief officer, right? They're doing incredible work and they're doing the work and labor of people that will never give them credit for it, right? So it's more about like that. But see like real authentic stories like that, brands are oftentimes scared to share because it makes them look

quote unquote, look bad. But to me, that don't make you look bad. That's the truth. And then what you can do is you can say, and here's what we learned. Here's what we learned. How many other Jameses or Ronas are out there that we can actually like benefit from hiring and building an environment that welcomes them and makes them, that encourages their success and their growth. That to me is the more powerful story because guess what? Like you're building all this content out to a

to supposedly attract like people on the margins. Well, people on the margins is gonna see through these stories as nonsense. So just if that's the goal, if the goal is to attract that talent, then be honest about those stories. You know what I mean?

That's why it's so important to have people like you with the lived experience telling these stories or like helping people tell these stories. As you were talking, I totally forgotten about this, but I was remembering a large company that I worked at where, of course, I was one of the only black women or probably the only black person in management. So then they come for their employer branding.

videos and stuff like that and I'm good on video. So of course Rona is going to be on video and the person asking the questions, you know, you go in with a list of questions to get the story is asking me things about like, can you tell us about your childhood? Because again, I'm an immigrant. was like, girl, if you want a story of some poverty and now me, no, I was luckily or very privileged.

Rhona Pierce (30:59.842)
I went to private school. like my parents do really well. It's like this is I'm not that story that you want. I'm not that typical story. Now, do I navigate? Have I had issues navigating corporate America and all of that? 100 % that we can talk about. Like, but I it's not that typical, like was poor and now blah, blah, first person. Nothing wrong with those stories, but those are the stereotypical stories that they think that people think they're going to tell about.

a black person in management and we all didn't grow up the same. Like it's just just like white people have different backgrounds. Black people have different backgrounds. So it's so important to have that was such an insulting moment that it just we couldn't come back from it because the entire rest of the interview I was like this person just.

But you're absolutely right. Like there's this framing and there's this there's a framing right that happens so often. And I don't I don't even know if I don't think it's often even intentional or malicious and, you know, innocent, irrespective of the impact where it's like, hey, look at this person who we again, like scooped up from this really bad situation and saved. I think there's also like this idea that like

black and brown people and women, they are like they need more training. Like the reason why they're not being successful is because they're incompetent. There's an assumption of incompetence that where it's like, hey, they just need to be if if they were given the same educational opportunities and trained the same, they could be just like these white people. And it's like, that's just a very colonialist narrative. And the reality is like, they don't need that. I remember like,

around like the pandemic, I was going on different people's podcasts and I was like, yo, like black folks don't actually need like your advice. Black and brown people don't need your advice. Women don't need your advice. People on the margins, disabled, they don't need your advice. They just need your things. They need your voice. They need your advocacy. They need your capital. They don't need your advice. Like people on the margins, they, they know, they know where they were. know what they need to do.

Zach Nunn (33:23.512)
They just don't have the things to do it.

the access. Yeah, it's like we need you to open the door. We need you to realize that the doors are closed for us. Right. And fight to open them. That's what we really need you to do. Right. But help. No, we've got this. We've been like you said, we're probably doing the job of like three people. We're operating at levels that are way more than what we're being paid to do for, again, systemic reasons. like just open the door.

Move on.

Rhona Pierce (33:56.418)
We've got this. For someone listening who works in HR or TA and wants to create more meaningful content around these topics, where should they start?

You know, the, you know, so interesting about that is like after the murder of George Floyd, there's so much content out there around like racism at work and racism everywhere, systemic challenges and barriers. those things are, there's plenty of content on that. I would say just Google, like Google is your friend. Now it has degraded quite a bit with all this AI stuff, but Google is still your friend.

You know, if you want to just type in, how does identity shape workplace experience? There's plenty of topics, podcasts, books, TED talks, LinkedIn posts and blogs, sub stacks, medium articles, all about that. So I think like just take the initiative to look it up for yourself, right? Like there's not going to be this magical 20 page

template on exactly how to think and feel and what to say, but just like give yourself like an hour and just like search about it. You know what I mean? And then start there and then be continue to be curious so that you can continue to learn. like just Google fam. Like just try something.

Yeah, it is. It's like.

Rhona Pierce (35:28.874)
Even like listen to podcasts like this one. Like if you listen, if you heard something in this conversation that you agreed or disagreed with, and now I'm inviting it just, mean, do a video. Like what's it called? The I'm forgetting the words on Tik Tok where you can like comment on a video, like play a clip and then play the other clip. Like, yeah, do your thing. Write something on LinkedIn. Look, I listened to this podcast and they said this, this is my point of view. Like say something like.

Everything that has to be said hasn't been said, but like you said, there's so much content out there. You don't have to like invent anything new. Just share your perspective on what's already out there.

percent.

What's one mistake that you see people making when they try to engage with these types of topics in their content?

I think that it's really easy because we're in a very individualistic culture. So it's easy to kind of fall down the trap of individual anecdotal examples and not necessarily interrogate the systems and structures. But I'm telling you, I really believe that the more systemically you engage something, the richer the conversation can be.

Zach Nunn (36:48.298)
It empowers you to imagine.

a future in a world that's more fair and that's more interesting as opposed to just like talking about it from like your very limited experience or what you have or have not seen or what someone told you about one time. And so it's just asking though, like asking why maybe four or five times and, seeing what you get. think it's really easy to keep it at the micro, but the macro is where

you can start to learn and challenge and push yourself and your, you know, the people you're talking to. Yeah.

So this has been an amazing conversation so far, but if you've ever watched the show, you know, I like to have a segment at the end. My favorite segment is called Plead to the Fifth. That's what we're going to do. So I'll ask you. We'll see. We'll see. There's three questions. You can only plead to one, right? And you're not going to know what's coming next. So.

give it up so I don't know you I might not

Rhona Pierce (37:52.618)
What's a guest you had on your podcast purely for clout, not because you respected their point of view?

Zach Nunn (38:04.46)
Yo, that's so funny. Golly, let me think about that. Who the hell on the podcast purely for clout? Not because I, the funny you said, not because I respected their point of view. That makes it really funny.

Zach Nunn (38:21.338)
Like no joke, I don't know if I've had any guests purely for clout because so the purpose of living corporate is that's just such a funny question. It's real talk in a corporate world, right? So whoever I'm having on, we giving it up. Like we're having a real conversation. You know what though, I can't say this. I can say that I talked to someone who had a, who was networked and connected with Candace Owens and they were connected with, who is that guy?

Ben Carson and they wanted to know if they could come on my podcast and I said F no, because that would have been some clout stuff.

Yeah, yeah, these are names that we don't say here. Nope.

And it would have violated and it would have violated like the the social contract I have with my audience, right? So so no, so no. But yeah, so there have been people like that who have had opportunity or was encouraged to go to connect with or go to something to meet. And I've said I've said.

Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. What's one topic you avoid discussing publicly because you're not sure you'd survive the backlash?

Zach Nunn (39:37.73)
Yeah, so it's interesting you say it. I keep on joke halfway joking, but like I'm not really joking. I do eventually want to talk about employee inexperience, the, what's the word? Just I guess inequity, but like just how employee experience is not, is not equal across the board within the, within the porn industry and sex work in general, like

like the systemic challenges within sex work and like how black and brown people, disabled people, queer people, and despite the fact that they are like trans people, like the fact that they are like some of the most overly consumed and engaged with talent, like they're also like drastically underpaid and mistreated. That's something I've yet to like really talk about or do a series on in Libby corporate just because like we not big enough, right? Like, like in my mind, like I'd want to do that when we're like doing stupid money that way, like

we could survive because I feed my family, right? But I find the topic very interesting. And when you think about how sex work continues to expand with OnlyFans and just different things, it's an ever-growing field. And so it's becoming increasingly relevant to everybody. Plus, when you think about how big that industry is,

So I do believe it's relevant. think it's really important. I just haven't really talked about it formally on Living Corporate yet, because I'm just like, I don't know. Like one, do I have the range and the depth to like engage that in the way that needs to be engaged? And then two, like, am I comfortable like with my current clients and how we brand and present ourselves? How do I make that fit? Does that fit at all?

Yeah

Zach Nunn (41:30.326)
I'm not putting up with it. I'm not it

No, yeah, yeah, I'm loving this. Okay, last one. What's something problematic you've done in your own early DEI or content work before you knew better, but you still cringe about today?

Ooh, that's a good question.

Zach Nunn (41:53.74)
You know something I did and I did not know that it was, I didn't know that it was wrong. So like when learning about pronouns and putting your pronouns on folks content, putting your pronouns on your titles, like Zach Nunn, he, whatever. One time I assumed somebody's, like I was putting a presentation together and I assumed somebody's pronouns as she, her.

And it, and she said, and that person said, actually, it's she, they, and we had a whole, and like, they were so gracious in educating me about like, Hey, I am she, but I'm not her, I'm she, they, and like, I understand, I appreciate you wanting to do this, but like, and I know you were probably just putting this presentation together, but you just because you don't ever want to like fill out that information for anybody else, irrespective of like how they present.

or conversations y'all have had. Like give people the space and the dignity of filling that out on their own. Right. And, and, and they, and like very graciously like explaining to me why it was wrong. and so I really appreciated that. and, and yeah, but like what was tripped, what tripped me out was cause I had done that probably three or four more times before that and nobody said anything. Right. And so this was like time when someone actually like pulled me aside.

and gave me that feedback in real time. And so I really appreciated that.

That's how we learn. That's really how we learn. Well, you survived Plead to the Fifth and you didn't plead. I wasn't expecting you to, but I'm like, we'll see, we'll see.

Zach Nunn (43:27.751)
That's how we learn.

Zach Nunn (43:35.854)
The first one is such a great question though. Like, cause you're right. People do bring on folks. They don't care nothing what they got to talk about or what they saying. and you know, I've, I presented that, but no, this, that's an X. might, I might have to like swag a jack that that's a great segment. Please. That's great.

Well, we'll make sure to share this with everyone. I've loved this conversation. I've loved your honesty. Thank you so much. How can folks connect with you?

Yo, so if you type in living corporate, wherever you look for anything, you're going to find us. Okay. So just type in living corporate or on LinkedIn, just type in Zach nun. There aren't a ton of Zach nuns. there's this Congressman, this MAGA Congressman named Zach, not out of Iowa. Now, if I see him, cause he, I think we connected in that other way. So I see him, I got to get my, my, my lick back, but outside of that Zach nun, we are.

Zach Nunn (44:40.13)
Just find me that way. then, and again, look, please check out our podcast. We have a flagship podcast and we have a network of limited series podcasts. Just type in Living Corporate and you'll find us. that's it. Living Corporate and then Zach Nunn. Search it wherever and then hit me up. I'm available everywhere.

amazing. And I'll also add all of those links in the show notes. Thanks again for joining me on workfluencer.

Thank you, Rhona. Peace.

Thanks so much for listening. If you're enjoying the Workfluencer pod, share it with someone who's changing how we talk about work or who should be. And hey, if this episode gave you ideas or inspiration, leave us a five-star review. Reviews help other listeners find us. And honestly, it makes my day. Workfluencer is produced by Perceptible Studios. Learn more about how we can help you use video to attract, engage, and retain qualified talent at perceptiblestudios.com. Thanks for listening.

and I'll chat with you next week.