Healing Work Trauma and Rebuilding Confidence with Kat Kibben

Kat Kibben (00:00.142)
talking about toxic bosses. I straight up called out some of those managers and described them in ways that I think they would know it was them. And you know, we're always taught not to say anything bad about former employers and all this stuff, but they left scars on me and I'm not gonna pretend that didn't happen anymore. I told her bluntly about the bounce back factor, how it was about navigating uncertainty with confidence.

I honestly, I had to write it for me and some really bad bosses that planted seeds in me and rules about leadership that were not real or true.

so relating with everything that you're saying. It's like wild.

and how when we become leaders, you think you have to do it all yourself.

Yes, that is the expectation.

Kat Kibben (00:49.856)
I almost changed the entire premise of the book. I almost deleted it.

Today, we're throwing out the prep docs and having the conversation I'd have with my friend at a coffee shop, except we're recording it. Kat Kibben just published The Bounce Back Factor. And while everyone else is only asking about the book's message, I want to know about the mess, the three-year gap between chapters, the imposter syndrome that almost killed it, the moment they finally believed they were an author.

because Kat is one of the writers I respect most. And if they struggled with this, we need to talk about it. Plus, I've got a confession segment at the end that might make Kat regret agreeing to do this. This is the author interview no publicist would approve. Kat, welcome to Workfluencer.

I am so excited to be here. I am a forever fan of you, so thank you for having me.

Of course, we were talking before, I think you were one of my first guests, probably guest number three, I think, when I started the podcast. And now that it's been over a year, you're back, you have a new book. I'm so, so excited to have you here today. But let's start with the basics. Like, what is the bounce back factor and who did you write it for?

Kat Kibben (02:11.31)
I honestly, I had to write it for me. I think that's what made it such a stumbling block is I tried to write it for other people. So I did the whole like for corporate teams, we can da da da da da. And there were so many points where I just hit the wall so hard because I realized that if I was trying to write it for everyone, was for no one. And really the bounce back factor is about how to navigate uncertainty with confidence.

And the only way I learned how to do that or how to teach my team how to do that was by teaching myself first.

I love that. I love that. And it's so true. have to, if you write for everyone, you're writing for no one. And I read somewhere that the book is for people who've been knocked down. Was there a specific moment or experience that made you realize you had to write this?

I don't know that it was some light bulb moment or it really struck me, but there was a conversation I had during Van Life where I was talking to one of my mentors, Franny Oxford, and we were talking about how leaders don't take care of themselves. And I remember saying to her, if we don't change as leaders, nothing changes. The team will not.

innovate, they're not going to create the next best product, none of those things that we aspire to or we think we're going to have. And ultimately, I think it was the healing that made the book possible because I had to heal from my own work trauma and some really bad bosses that planted seeds in me and rules about leadership that were not real or true.

Rhona Pierce (03:56.406)
Wow. Yes. I think so many people have had those experiences, unfortunately, and I love the self-awareness that you bring into writing this. So if someone were to walk into their favorite local bookstore, because we support local bookstores around here, and finds your book,

How do you want them to read it? Like, do they drop in the middle, start at the beginning? Like, where do they start? What's your favorite chapter?

Yeah, you got to start at the beginning because you need to realize that yes, this is a book about van life. Yes, this is a book about leadership. But before I took on van life, I had never gone camping before. Not really. Okay. And so the setup for this book is this idea that growing up in a military family,

where everything was urgent, there was a lot of rigor, there was a right way. There was a right way to be a human being in my family. And growing up in that way will have you pursuing things that are not for you. It will have you pursuing goals. It will have you following rigor that does not help you be more successful, but it feels right because that framework was always the setup.

And I really want people to understand, you know, this isn't a consequence of a perfect life. This isn't the consequence of all of these things lining up for me to live my dreams. It is the outcome of a friction that I was feeling because I did all the things that everyone told me to do. I got money. I started my own business. I thought I had done all the things and I still felt the same way. I still

Kat Kibben (05:51.224)
felt that constant nagging of anxiety that I wasn't doing enough, that I wasn't working hard enough. Every time I walked away from my computer, I could easily tell myself I wasn't doing the right thing. And that is no way to live your life. It's just not. But for me to learn, you got to go to the extremes. And I tell all these stories about how I've always done that. When I first decided to work out, you know what the first race I signed up for? A Tough Mudder.

You're all in. Go big or go home.

Not a five. That's how I am because I learn in the extremes. I learn when I put myself to a challenge that feels bigger than me. And the reality is I don't think I ever would have realized that my ability to handle uncertainty was the problem unless I went to an extreme in which everything in my life was uncertain for three years.

I'm like so relating with everything that you're saying. It's like wild.

I know because that's the thing is if you ask someone, have you ever had a bad boss? If I ask a room of 100 people, have you ever had a bad boss? Every hand in that room is going up or they're not paying attention because we are.

Rhona Pierce (07:07.534)
They worked for their parents maybe and don't want to say it.

Mom's sitting next to him. Just don't talk about it. that feeling they leave us with changes us. It changes our chemistry. We don't get this far. We don't start our own businesses and create from a place of knowing, of deeply understanding problems, unless you have deeply experienced the consequence of that problem. And that's why I wrote this book because every other leadership book I have ever read is about

creating a team culture and leaving from within. that's great. That's wonderful. But it creates one false assumption that is very important that no one talks about is that we all don't start from the same place. We all have different trauma and weird little things happening inside of our brain and the imposter syndrome. It all creeps in and it makes it really hard to just like be a contributor. And we're just shoving.

shit down until we break.

Yep, yep, yep. And so many people don't even get this that the people you're managing have issues. You have issues. Everyone's bringing whatever to the table. If you've made it this far into the episode and you're not subscribed yet, now's a good time. Tell us one of your favorite stories from the book.

Kat Kibben (08:36.782)
That's a hard one. The one that I think most people are surprised by, and I think this is one of those stories that really helps people understand just how unique van life is, is my first flat tire. So I got my first flat tire three days before I left. Wow. Yeah.

Kat Kibben (09:00.95)
nail in my tire, but I did not locate that until I drove all the way from Colorado to Florida with my tire pressure light coming on every other day. And to the dads who are listening to this, who are having a panic attack right now, I promise you I filled it up every morning. I checked it meticulously. I could not figure out the issue. So fast forward, I make it to Florida. It is December. It is Christmas time.

And I finally get to a tire center. I'm literally there when they open. Guy comes up, we figure out the issue. It is a nail this big. I have that nail, by the way, sitting in a glass box in the living room. And we make a plan. We're gonna yank it out and then I'm gonna drive towards the door. Well, he yanks the like tire door, right? So he pulls the nail.

we start to drive towards it and then somebody comes out behind him waving their arms like this. And I'm like, you are not talking to me. I know that is not for me. That's when I find out that the lift on the cars, you know, the thing that lifts your car up. Yeah. It's not strong enough or weighted to the van.

no.

They can't help me. So I start backing up right into my parking spot and I just sit there. But this time with the soundtrack of a wheezing tire, literally just because van tires fill to 70. Your tire fills to 30 to give contrast. That's how much bigger it is and how much air is in there. So a kid comes out and I swear to you, he looked like he was on Scooby Doo.

Kat Kibben (10:46.574)
Like he was scrawny and tall. He looks like scrappy, you know, he's like looking around. And then he marches over, he's smoking a vape. I will never forget this kid as long as I live. And he goes, I took my break and I'm allowed to tell you how to pouch a tire, but I can't touch it. And I'll do it if you give me a tour of your van.

Cool.

And that day, I learned how to patch tires. And I would have to do that several times over the next three years, because apparently my tires were full of magnets. But I tell that story to illustrate how asking for help is so hard unless it's offered. And how when we become leaders, and I'm not sure if you've experienced this, but the second you become a leader, you think you have to do it all yourself?

Yes, that is the expectation.

and you need to know how to do everything. And if you can't do it, you can't give that work to someone else. And that's not real or true. But corporate will never incentivize us asking for help.

Rhona Pierce (11:54.52)
Wow. It's like looking back. Absolutely. That's what you first get promoted. And I was someone who was promoted early on in my career. So you already like even if no one told you, you feel because everyone thinks, this is the young I was 23. This is the young 23 year old managing 40 plus year old people. And it's like, they already think I know nothing. So I'm absolutely not asking for help. And that just set the tone for

me and leadership.

Right? We promote our best workers to become leaders. And because you are good at work does not mean you are good at leading people. It means you know how to do your job. That transition, I feel like, is one of those fault lines inside of corporate America that's going to break.

Yes. Wow. I can't wait to read the book. I purposely haven't read it because that's like, I want to come to this interview as a listener who hasn't read it and get excited. I knew I would get excited. Also, you are an amazing writer, so I know I'm going to like it, but I can't, can't wait. In your blog post last week, you mentioned feeling like an imposter calling yourself an author. Tell me about that.

I love to read. So I gotta caveat this story by saying that I am someone who really admires people who can tell stories that make you feel something. Because I read a lot and not many things make me feel. And the writers that I love, the authors that I love, make me feel something when they create. And for so long,

Kat Kibben (13:44.846)
I believed or told myself at least that I was not like them. Mostly because I spent most of my corporate career hiding, just hoping that my hard work would pay off and believing that who I am didn't matter. And my life fundamentally changed when I allowed people to see me. And today I think that

is what gave way for me to be able to write a book that's not just about recruiting. We've known each other for a long time. I write about recruiting. I've written about recruiting for 15 plus years now. And I love recruiting because it is math as much as it is science as it is psychology. And it allows for many visions of the right way to do things. But

In that exact same framework, think recruiting also creates an alternative world in which some things can be wrong. And often the things that are wrong are people's behavior. So to write a book about what I believe about my behavior, how I acted when my tire went flat, when I got lost in the woods, when the rain started to piss me off. Okay. You know, like

Yes.

Kat Kibben (15:10.654)
And to transparently allow people to see how I made myself miserable in a lot of ways is really scary. And I think author held some permission and also just fear. My friends, honestly, my assistant is a magazine editor and author as well.

How did you work through that?

Kat Kibben (15:33.312)
and has done a lot as far as like just giving me permission. You know, it's funny how formatting can make you feel like an author. And you're going to laugh when I say that, but literally it's like, she took my letters that I've written on Fridays. I write letters about life and she took all of them and just put them in a book format. And it's like, see book, see author, author, Kat Kippen. That's what it says right here. Done. You're an author. You know, it's

My girlfriend reading every single letter that I put out every single week because it's the only thing I don't plan, which makes it scary. So I write it before Wednesday every week, and then it goes out to people on Fridays. I do not plan them. I don't work ahead. I only write from inspiration, but she reads every single one. And every week she says, you're my favorite author.

I did not know that you didn't plan these two things. When you say you were writing about something other than recruiting, I think back to your letters and yes, some of them do tie back a lot of them do tie back to recruiting, but a lot of your letters and I think

I know it's why I like them and I think it's why a lot of people like them. It's that break from the typical recruiting content and it's about your life. So knowing that they're not planned and that they're out of inspiration, how do you find that inspiration weekly for so many years?

It makes me look for it. You know, I'm sure you see all the motivational quotes I see about looking for good, right? And seeing the good in people. literally allows me to take a pause every single week. It forces me to take a pause every single week to say, what is inspiring me? What is influencing me? And it's kind of like a fun writing exercise that I get to do.

Kat Kibben (17:28.5)
every week. And I also give myself permission now more than I used to transparently to say, I don't feel inspired this week. I'm not going to write because, you know, transparently the state of the world doesn't always give me a ton of mental bandwidth for that world of creation, creating. But that's why we're here is to create. That's why we're on this podcast. That's why we write all of it.

I love that you say and you put it out there that you give yourself permission to not write when you're not inspired because I think a lot of creators get into that like, no, I said I was going to do weekly so I have to do weekly and you have to, and like people can tell. It's less likely for people to tell that you didn't write a letter than it is for people to tell. Like it's, they can tell when you're forcing it.

If you want to make me unsubscribe to something, send me that forced content because I'm like you, right? I can smell it, especially when it's just, put your heart into it. Those clicks aren't worth it just for the sake of rigor. that's funny enough, earlier today, I read the chapter about goal setting to a very small group and we did a goal setting exercise and

I was just thinking about that chapter. A lot of it is about chasing what you actually want. And when we create in that way, what we're craving is connection because we're human beings and because connection matters. Community matters. You don't have to force what matters. You have to allow the things that matter to take priority in your life and choose them, but force ain't it. You don't have to work harder.

I blame all the creator educators out there saying you have to be consistent. Consistency doesn't mean you put out crap content. It also doesn't mean that you make excuses for yourselves like, this week I don't feel. And then two, three, four weeks go by. Quick break. If you've been thinking about starting a podcast but don't know where to begin, I've got something for you. I'm letting women in TA, HR, or employer brand

Rhona Pierce (19:47.63)
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Rhona Pierce (20:10.558)
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Rhona Pierce (20:22.702)
How do you decipher the difference of I'm procrastinating, I'm making excuses, or I'm not inspired?

Yeah. So I think for me, if I'm not feeling inspired, I will write nothing. If I am procrastinating or kind of like pushing it, I have lots of little thoughts. So how my little thoughts manifest is emails to me from me. So I'll be at the gym, right? I'm like riding the elliptical and all of a sudden the little thought pops in my head and I start.

one sentence, right? And then I shoot that off to myself and then I'll have another thought later in the day or I'll start writing and then I won't get to the finish and then I just won't finish it, right? And I just start kicking it down the road a little bit. And so sometimes having the time structure helps. So I know that on Thursday, I have to give that letter to my editor or she's going to be rushed.

And I don't want to do that to her. So my empathy as a fellow writer and editor is like, I want to give her a full 24 hours with this piece of information so that she doesn't have 15 minutes to quickly look at it before it needs to go out. And so I think I would tell anybody who struggles with the procrastination is like set structure.

around your week. If you're committed to weekly, you need structure around the week that says by this time on this day, this has to be done. And hopefully, you know, if you have the team or you're just trying to do it for yourself, just remember that rushing always ruins things. And I speak as a professional rusher.

Kat Kibben (22:07.798)
I rush. But I won't do it to other people. I'll rush me. Not you.

my gosh, we're so similar. It's interesting as we talk because we never talk about these things as much as we've talked throughout the years. But yes, my gosh, I totally get it. You've written openly about how resilience isn't just about getting back up. It's about how you get back up. And I think that's really a lot of what the book was about. Right. So how did writing this book test your own bounce back factor?

You'll love this. I, you mentioned this briefly in the intro, but I started this book three years ago. All right. So right around this time, three years ago, I was in upstate New York waiting for the leaves to change colors. And on the weekends, on my like leaf peeping, which is totally a thing people do. And it sounds weird, but if you've seen those leaves, it is obnoxiously beautiful. But

I would go to these coffee shops in these little upstate New York towns and I would write every weekend. And it was like all magical and everything. And as every creator knows, the magic wears off. At some point you're like, no, not today, not this week, whatever. And so I put the book down and I worked on it a little bit every year, like just kind of a perusal.

Transparently, I have four books that are all in little folders on my Google Drive that I have started in some way. So I'm always thinking about it. over the last year, I think I realized that I could write another book about AI, I could write a book about recruiting, but what's going to matter most at the end of whatever happens with these machines as people and how we engage with each other. And van life was too good of a lesson to not write about.

Kat Kibben (24:05.228)
So in February of this year, I booked a trip to Puerto Rico and I was going to write the book. A bunch of friends came with, like they were already going. So I just went with them. We stayed way off of the city. Like we drove two and a half hours outside of San Juan to stay in this beautiful place, private, quiet. I went to write a book and I did not write one damn sentence.

I read this really beautiful book. It's not on my desk right now, but it's by Ta-Nehisi Coates. And it's about why the world needs writers. It's called The Message. And it was perfectly timed and so divine because it reminded me that the reason we need writers, the reason we need creators is no one sees the world exactly like you do. But everyone deserves to be able to take a quick

glimpse and perspective is what changes the world. That, that's how the world changes. It's not all these efforts over and over again. And when I got home, I started writing and it was my all the time project. And I finished the book between February and July.

Wow. So how was that? Like you're running a business, you're speaking, you're doing all of this. were you carving out specific time? Like how was that process to make that happen so quickly?

So I like to write in the mornings and I cannot be interrupted by meetings. That's kind of just rules for me as far as creativity. And so what I would do is at the beginning of every week, I do this all the time, is on Fridays, I look at my whole week for the next week and I look for the days in which I have the least amount of meetings and I assign my writing projects to those days. So

Kat Kibben (26:09.408)
Yeah, I would be traveling and all of that, but I would hold Fridays every single Friday and I would write first. Or if I wasn't in the mood to write, I'd go do something else. That's fine. But I held the time. So it was a reminder that like, this is something you're supposed to be working on, whether you use this time or not. And this is so embarrassing. I booked a keynote for my book before I released my book. So I had to finish the book before the keynote.

Talk about pressure. I love that. Was that intentional or did that just like kind of happen and then you're like, let me go with this.

fully thought that book would be done as like March or April. I was not expecting to finish it. Like I launched my pre-launch for the book, like the day after the keynote.

Yeah, no, I love a good deadline. I will always be on time. If you give me a deadline, it'll happen. But this one was cutting it a little close.

I'm totally believing the whole you're a rusher now. Like this is, I love this energy.

Kat Kibben (27:23.086)
You know what it is though? It's the long form content. I'm good with short form. We blog every single week. I'm very good with that kind of maintenance and we write those a full month out. So we're pretty regular and consistent about all of that. It's long form content that I struggle with, feeling like it's good enough that it's all jointed. It's just a different writing challenge than the 500, the 750 word blog post.

Yeah, is it because it's harder or because you're used to doing the blogging for so long?

I two pieces. I do think it's harder because you kind of have to build up a story that's interesting. Then you need to have a transition that helps someone understand why we're framing that story in this way. And then you have to explain it and like give them something actionable. And when you do that in 500 words, very, very easy.

You know, that's a quick conversation. I can voice to text a 500 word blog in about nine minutes. I tested myself this morning, but if I'm writing that long form, I have to start with an intense outline. I need to understand the structure of the story. I, I need a lot more structure to stay on focus and not kind of bounce all over the place because I find that to be an

error in a lot of self-published writing is that I feel like they hit the same topic multiple times in different places instead of kind of reorganizing their work because it's so hard to self-edit that

Rhona Pierce (29:07.95)
How did working with an editor that's on your team? So it's like, people usually work with an external editor that yeah, they work for you, but not directly, but you're literally your editor's boss. How does that work as far as like getting the real feedback?

You know, I think she knows my style and that allows her to ask for clarity in a way that I don't think most people, like she'll be like, you're close, but not quite there. Where a traditional editor would probably think that was good enough. And I also think that what was beautiful about this book and why I had

someone on my team edit and not an external person is because this is something we grew through together. The people who were on my team, they've been with me a long time. People don't just leave Three Ears Media. You come in, your family, and that's not the corny, awful, we're like a family thing. It's like, we are gonna be dysfunctional in some ways, but we're gonna grow together. I mean, yesterday, my editor and I, cried about how much we've grown through.

because we've basically spent the last decade together.

I guess I didn't realize you were working together that long.

Kat Kibben (30:32.718)
my very first intern, a friend asked me in the recruiting community, asked me, you know, my, my good friend is looking for a writing gig. They just graduated with a master's in creative writing. Do you know anybody? And I was like, they could help me. And fast forward, you know, she came and worked for me for a little bit. And then she went out and worked for an executive recruiting firm.

and then called me up one day, actually when I picked up the van, the day I picked up the van, she called me back and she said, hey, I hate it out here. Can I please come back? And I said, hell yeah, you can. But truly, like, I think this is a celebration as much as this book is a love letter to the person I used to be and the beliefs I used to hold.

It's really a love letter to like all the people who facilitated that growth. And there's no place that I've grown more than on this team with those people.

I love it. Yes. Running your own business. You will grow. There's no, there's no scenario where you don't grow when you run your own business.

She's so stretched. mean, but how beautiful is it to have someone who, this is what made us cry yesterday, is when she said, do you remember when we celebrated the first time someone ever filled out a form on the website? That we didn't know.

Kat Kibben (32:01.538)
And I cried, I'm gonna cry right now. We cried just realizing like today we're celebrating two books.

a profitable business. know, over 10,000 people have downloaded our materials. know, we, can say with confidence that we've had an influence on how people hire.

Yes.

And I've gotten to do that with some.

That is amazing, amazing. Where can people find the book?

Kat Kibben (32:42.072)
So I did something a little different this time, because I want to give all the money to the Bezos of the world. And so you can, of course, buy it on Amazon, of course. But you can also go to the bouncebackfactorbook.com and you can buy a copy from the author. I will sign it. I will mail it to you. You will not get the same instant gratification of having the Amazon truck pull up tomorrow. But I promise you it will be there. And I will send some little bonuses too for

going local.

Yes, I got my copy. can't wait to get it. And when I saw that I went to the page and I saw it's like, yes, you can get it on Amazon or you guys like I am 100 % getting a signed copy from my friend. I can't wait to get it. But yes, please support authors directly as much as you can. Where should people connect with you if they want to follow your journey?

Yeah, so I'm the only Katrina Kibben in the world. So if you spell my name right, you will find me. If you spell it wrong, you'll find a priest for the US House of Representatives and you will know you are in the wrong place. I would say my two favorite places to create stories and share them are over on LinkedIn and on Instagram. feel like Instagram is just my little close friends that we make jokes about eyebrows and

dogs and weird signs that say welcome. That's an inside joke from this week with air quotes. But yeah, I'd say LinkedIn or Instagram. Just search for Katrina Kibben.

Rhona Pierce (34:19.448)
And I'll link all of that in the show notes. But if you've ever watched the show, you know there's a segment at the end. So we've talked about the bounce back factor and the big picture, but now it's time to confess. Like no PR, no polished answers, just the messy reel behind the scenes of writing a book. I'm going to throw out a few questions your way and you've got to give us just give it to us straight. Are you ready?

Let's go.

What's the page in the book that makes you sweat a little like the one you're low-key nervous people are going to read?

talking about toxic bosses. I straight up called out some of those managers and described them in ways that I think they would know it was them. And you know, we're always taught not to say anything bad about former employers and all of this stuff, but they left scars on me and I'm not gonna pretend that didn't happen.

love it. Okay, be honest, what's the most painfully unglamorous part of writing this book?

Kat Kibben (35:25.206)
Editing that stupid, awful book. my god, editing is the most painful thing that you have ever done in your life. So take something that you really, really love, like an art project or a nice pot, and then do it again, and then read it again, and then read it again. Like, I cannot tell you how many times I have read the hundreds of pages of this book, forward, backwards, and sideways, like to the point where I almost started to hate it.

You

What's the biggest lie you told yourself while writing this book?

I'll write a book in Puerto Rico on vacation.

Rhona Pierce (36:07.886)
what's the harshest piece of feedback you got? The one that made you want to throw it in the trash, but actually made the book stronger.

So about halfway through the process, I had a referral come in and they wanted me to speak at their leadership conference. So basically they take all their executives to some nice place and they need a speaker. And I told her bluntly about the bounce back factor, how it was about navigating uncertainty with confidence. And she said, we can't talk about uncertainty in front of.

to you.

Why not?

because she's operating under the old rules of leadership. And she believes that if a leader dares utter the word uncertainty, that no one, that they won't feel confident in the company and that they'll think the whole world is coming to an end. And I almost changed the entire premise of the book. I almost deleted it. And I realized that I understand that there will always be people

Kat Kibben (37:24.046)
who believed that because we were raised in that, in our society, to believe that infallibility is a sign of success. And I refuse to believe that in a society where we can't even tell you what technology we'll be using in three months, that you cannot benefit from knowing how to navigate uncertainty with confidence, whether you're in a boring industry like insurance or you're working in AI.

Amazing. Yes. Last one. What's one thing about publishing a book that absolutely no one prepared you for?

How much you have to talk about your book and ask other people for help. We talked a little bit earlier about how asking for help is one of the of the core lessons in this book and clearly one that I wasn't completely prepared to our because asking, creating a launch crew, asking for help every single week to promote it and really putting yourself out there vulnerably to invite other people to support you like every single week for six weeks.

It is a test, but I will tell you as an entrepreneur, I have learned this over and over again, is that everything we want is past a certain amount of friction.

I love this. So I've really enjoyed this conversation. But before we wrap, is there anything that you want listeners to know about you or about this book that I didn't ask you?

Kat Kibben (38:57.826)
just want everyone, and it's not even to know about me, but I think deeply, I just want everyone to remember that compassion is an alternative for rigor. That empathy and being kind to yourself will deliver and can deliver the exact same results as beating yourself up. And to just be really, really nice to yourself, because...

Your whole world is a reflection of what's happening inside of you.

amazing. I'm so excited to read the book after this conversation. hope listeners are as well. I'll link everything in the show notes. Thank you. Thank you so much, Kat, for being on Workfluencer. Thanks so much for listening. If you're enjoying the Workfluencer pod, share it with someone who's changing how we talk about work or who should be and hey, if this episode gave you ideas or inspiration,

me.

Rhona Pierce (39:54.688)
Leave us a five-star review. Reviews help other listeners find us. And honestly, it makes my day. Workfluencer is produced by Perceptible Studios. Learn more about how we can help you use video to attract, engage, and retain qualified talent at perceptiblestudios.com. Thanks for listening, and I'll chat with you next week.