Building Recruiting Future with Matt Alder

Matt Alder (00:00.046)
I never really had a plan to end up where it is now. So it's been 10 years of a podcast and 700 or 720 something. Actually with all the kind of the roundups and the specials and everything that I've done, it's actually closer to 800, which is a lot of content. I recently kind of finished kind of getting some gaps in the transcriptions done and it's, it's three million words. I've always tried to be consistent. Even when I started, I said, I'm going to do 50 episodes before I decided whether I'm going to carry on with this or not.

I saw someone come up to you and say like, yeah, I listened to your podcast when I started in recruiting and this is how I learned. So the creator economy, this is really exploded. So different from how it was when you first started.

The creative economy has just kind of sprung up around me. So it's been an interesting journey for me because I first of all had lots of debates about with myself about, you know, do I go all in with video? Am I a video? Am I audio? What am I?

Most creators chase quick wins, downloads, clicks, and viral moments, but Matt Alder has always played the long game. For over 15 years, he's used podcasting not just to talk, but to shape the conversation around the future of talent. He's built one of the most trusted shows in the space, Recruiting Future, and influenced how an entire industry thinks about work. I've been lucky enough to co-host the Alder Hour with him for close to a year.

which means I've seen firsthand how much thought and consistency go into everything he creates. Today, I'm flipping the mic to ask, what does it really take to build authority over time? And why does that kind of influence matter more than ever? Matt, welcome to Workfluencer.

Matt Alder (01:49.826)
Well, thank you so much for having me. It's always great to talk to you and I'm loving being on your podcast already.

Amazing, was funny. Every time I interview a fellow podcaster, the beginning that we don't get to record is like, can you hear me? Is this working? Is the sound good? Is the sound good? And we had a good five minutes of that.

got too much kit between us. That's the trouble. We just need to record this straight into a laptop. It'll probably be easier.

So really, let's start at the beginning. Like what made you hit record 15 years ago and why podcasting?

It's a good question. Originally, I started off as a blogger. This was a really long time ago. It might be difficult to imagine, but there weren't many blogs. There were no podcasts or very few podcasts and very few blogs, which meant there were some really influential blogs about recruiting that I was reading. I just really fancied joining the conversation. We didn't even have...

Matt Alder (02:56.11)
LinkedIn wasn't really social. Blogging was the only real way to get your thoughts out there at that kind of scale. So I started a blog. It was one of the first sort of blogs in Europe around recruiting. it was called Recruiting Future. So that's where the name came from. And I wrote the blog consistently for quite some time. And then I've always been fascinated by audio, radio, all of that kind of stuff. And

As podcasting started to develop, because back then a podcast was something that you listen to on an iPod that you had to plug into the computer to download. It wasn't a very smooth process. as podcasting started to develop, I got really interested in it. And I started doing audio interviews on the blog because I was a bit fed up of writing all the time, if I'm honest. I thought, I'll just do these audio interviews. And then it...

It just kind of occurred to me that I should just flip it and actually turn the blog into a podcast because I was getting quite good feedback about the audio interviews that I'd done. Podcasting was sort of starting to emerge as a thing. So I did it. So I sort of said, right, I'm going to do a podcast. I am all in. I'm going to do 50 episodes before I even look at the numbers and all this kind of stuff. And really the motivation for doing it was to sort of continue

continue to try and establish a thought leadership bit. also, most of my work at that time was as an innovation consultant. And I was talking to lots of people in my research. And I just thought it'd be great to actually, why don't I just record these interviews and make them public. that's really how it started. I never really had a plan to end up where it is now. I think I perhaps...

I hoped that it might do well, but it really kind of started for lots of other reasons to the reason that I run it now.

Rhona Pierce (05:01.998)
And you're at episode 700 plus at this moment, right?

Yeah. So it's been 10 years of the podcast and 700 or 720 something actually with all the kind of the roundups and the specials and everything that I've done, it's actually closer to 800, which is a lot of content. you, I recently kind of finished kind of getting some gaps in the transcriptions done and it's, it's 3 million words. People have spoken over that time.

If you've made it this far into the episode and you're not subscribed yet, now's a good time. You've mastered podcasting as a medium, right? But you're also generally an expert in recruiting. Which came first?

Yeah. Good question. When I started the podcast, was really... Up to that point in my career, I've really focused the most on recruitment marketing. Recruitment marketing was my background. I also ran a team, got involved in lots of other aspects of recruiting. I worked for a couple of big recruitment marketing agencies that were also RPOs in their own right. I did a lot of stuff around the recruitment process, but really recruitment marketing was my

was my main thing. And then social media kind of came along. And writing about social media, you end up kind of encompassing much more than just marketing. And really, 10 years of interviewing, TA leaders and thought leaders every week has just been a massive education for me in terms of what's going on in the space and how we think about it. And in some ways, the podcast has been an education project in terms of talking to people I want to talk to.

Matt Alder (06:43.736)
finding out what's going on, you know, all of that, all of that kind of stuff.

Yeah, it's so interesting. think many people maybe don't know this, but when you start podcasting, I realized it early on. It's like, wait, I'm learning so much from these people. It's like I generally end most episodes. I would say every episode learning something that I did not know or changing my mind about something. So it's really educational for you as a podcaster.

Yeah, no, 100%. I think also one of the particularly if you're a podcaster who does interviews, I think the biggest attribute you have to have is curiosity. You know, really, because then I think you just ask bad questions, because it's kind of like, why, why did you do that? And what's it and you get, you know, you get a kind of a, an interesting mix of guests on and that kind of stuff. So I think that's a that's a big, that's a big thing.

Yeah, it's definitely a big thing. When you look back now, what role has consistency played in building your reputation and your influence?

Yeah. I like what you said about the long game. I think it's something that gets lost in the search for clicks and quarterly targets and the speed at which everything goes. So, I've always tried to be consistent. Even when I started, I said, I'm going to do 50 episodes before I decide whether I'm going to carry on with this or not.

Matt Alder (08:14.99)
And over time, the frequency of what I do has increased. So think I started at once a month or twice a month. And now I'm all the way up at twice a week. But really, I think if you are doing a podcast that isn't a season-based podcast, then that consistency is critical. Because also, there are key times like the summer and holiday time where all the other podcasts just drop off.

people still keep listening. And in fact, they listen to podcasts more when they've got that kind of time. So really, for me, it's just been about showing up consistently every week and paying attention to everything else that's going on. Trends in being a creator and all that kind of stuff. But really, at the same time, just carrying on relentlessly through all of it. Yeah, it's been interesting.

Matt Alder (09:16.43)
Yeah, pretty much now. I would say it's probably about 70 or 80 % of what I do. Just the mechanics of it, I do two episodes a week plus sometimes special episodes and things like that. They are nearly all interviews. That's a lot of people to handle in terms of interviews. I don't think I did this for the first four or five years, but for the least the last five years,

Even if I know the person really well, or even if they're famous, I want to talk to them before we have the show. And really over the last couple of years, that's been really important in terms of shaping the story of the interview and how it works and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, two guests a week, that's two record, I need to do two recordings for that, I need to have two meetings for that. So it kind of racks up in terms of that sort of stuff.

I have an editor now who does a lot of my editing, but there's still a huge amount of work to do with titles and introductions and the commercial side of it in terms of finding sponsors and keeping sponsors happy. then of course, I think probably the thing I spend the most time on is actually finding guests because that's the most important thing. I think that I've seen lots of people do interview podcasts and you can tell that the finding the guest bit

is the bit they've left to last because it's like, I'll go get my mates on or find some names in the industry to come on and be on the show. And that's bound to get me traffic. And it just doesn't work like that. If you're an interview based podcast, the quality, the diversity, the relevance of your guests to your audience is the most critical thing. So that's really where I put the most work in.

That's interesting. What's your criteria for who makes a good guest for recruiting future?

Matt Alder (11:14.958)
I don't have really strict criteria because I think that people can be really surprising. And I always want to try and stay a little bit flexible in terms of what's going on in the market and all that sort of stuff. mean, ideally, I want people who sound great on a podcast, but not necessarily people who've been on a podcast before. I've had lots of people on and it's the first time they've done a podcast. I'm very...

conscious of that, of helping people through the process because doing a podcast can be the weirdest thing in the world. It's like, I've been talking for five minutes. I haven't got an audience. I don't know whether you're still listening, what's going on. So helping through people through that is important. But really the criteria are, it's all based on the audience. And this is the biggest thing that I learned. So when I started the podcast, I was putting things on that I found interesting, basically. Now,

Because I'm all about innovation and technology and cutting edge stuff, was just somebody who posted the podcast that I absolutely loved, but no one really wanted to listen no one really was ready to listen to. From that point on, I've just been really, really aware of what is it that the audience wants to hear, but also what is it that the audience needs to hear? Because sometimes I want to push the audience as well to think about things they've not thought about before.

But really that audience is what dictates the guests for me. there will be times when I'm interviewing someone who's probably a fantastic guest, but they're talking about a topic that I don't really want to talk about it, but it just, I'm a bit like, yeah, I know this, I know all this, all that sort of stuff. But it's really important because it's a topic that's important to the audience. So it really is the audience that kind of defines everything that goes on the show.

How do you go about listening to your audience and getting that feedback? Do you ask directly? Is there analytics that you look at?

Matt Alder (13:13.134)
It's a combination of things. So I've done sort of audience surveys before. I get a lot of feedback, which is great. So people send me and please, if you listen to podcasts, send me feedback because I do read all. think I reply to all as well. So people will send me feedback, say, I love the show or whatever. And I'll ask them, what is it about the show that you like? What, who do you want to see on next? So that's big part of it. So talking directly to people when I can. And obviously conferences and things like that.

talking to people, trying to find out what's going on. So that's part of it. But also just looking at the numbers, looking at, the episode popular? How long did people listen to this particular episode for? That episode was more popular than this episode. Why was that? It's not always about the content. It might be about the timing of the release or something like that. But just having that holistic view of what's going on. But at the same time, keeping a really close eye on the market.

And then said, you know what, we need someone from outside the industry to come and talk about this. So yeah, it's kind of a mix, but I'm just really always... And looking at what people are talking about on LinkedIn, there were just so many different sources that kind of go into it. It's not just all about numbers and listeners and downloads and things like that. Because I think with a niche business podcast, which is what we do,

know, if you influence one person, or you help one person, that's a result, I think, because, you know, we're talking about smaller, you know, we're not, we don't have audiences of multi-millions of people. so to me, it's kind of, you know, that's just really important.

Yeah. And I experienced firsthand, I was with you at one of the conferences that we've been at recently. And I saw someone come up to you and say like, yeah, I listened to your podcast when I started in recruiting. And this is how I learned. I was like, what a cool feeling. And of course you were like totally like humble about it and normal. That's just who you are. But I was here like fangirling at the fan person moment that was happening. I was like, Ooh, that is so cool.

Matt Alder (15:30.158)
So, you know, I find that thing slightly embarrassing. But no, it's fine. I love feedback like that because podcasting is quite a lonely way of creating stuff because obviously I do video as well. But a lot of it is just audio and it's me staring at a wall talking. And you see the numbers so you know people are listening, but it's always good to hear what people have got from it.

And that's quite common one, actually. You know, I've sort of listened to your podcast throughout my career, which makes me feel very old, but it's also great. I had someone at an event a couple of years ago who told me that they had actually moved jobs and changed the trajectory of their TA career because of something they heard on my podcast. And luckily it worked out really well for them. So that was good. So yeah, mean, that to me is kind of...

That's me success. That means I'm doing the right thing.

Talk about pressure, switching their career path because of something they heard on your podcast, but that's amazing. So the creator economy, this has really exploded, so different from how it was when you first started. How has your approach to being a creator evolved over the years?

Yeah, it's interesting. The creative economy has sprung up around me. It's like, what's going on here? I've been lucky because podcasting is still very much on trend. It's very powerful. It's still a big thing. It's been an interesting journey for me because I, first of all, had to have lots of debates with myself about

Matt Alder (17:13.614)
Do I go all in with video? Am I a video? Am I audio? What am I doing? So that's been interesting. The way that creators and conferences interface with each other is really interesting because if I go back 15 years, it was bloggers. They were considered to be influencers. So you talked about influence and blogging and now we talk about content and creating and brands and stuff like that. it's kind of like having two jobs because I've got the whole...

talent acquisition and talent thing. then, you know, keeping up to date with what's going on with podcasting, but also the broader career economy. You know, luckily, I find it fascinating and I'm a real geek about it. it but yeah, things have changed dramatically in the last in the last few years. And it's, it's brilliant to see, you know, so many people creating fantastic content. You know, I'm just absolutely delighted that we've got such great

creators in our space just doing really great stuff. I think that more brands should pay attention really because it's a noisier world out there if you're trying to reach people and reaching people through established voices and people who can just produce fantastic content, I think is just such an important thing.

Do you think the brands in our space have caught on to the times and what's happening and how people are getting their information?

Yeah, some of them have. Some of them have massively. I'm sure you probably know who they are. So some of them have really kind of doubled down on this. What I've seen is we've kind of had a bit of an evolution. So if we go back sort of, I don't know, two years ago, there was a period in the sort of the first slowdown after the post-pandemic. So the pandemic was kind of all about creators and conferences weren't going on. It's like podcasts and video and stuff like that. And then there was a bit of a...

Matt Alder (19:14.43)
kind of a rationalization where the marketing people that I was talking to became very, very focused on hard metrics. So it's like, we want demos. We want demos, we want this, we've got a funnel, we've got all this kind of stuff. with podcasting, podcasting is quite different to some of the other mediums. And it's like, there isn't that sort of direct click path to a demo. However,

It's probably the most influential medium that there is. I've been really pleased in the last 18 months that marketing teams have shifted towards, well, hang on a minute. can book all these demos, but if people don't know who we are and we're not connected with the community, then we're not going to convert or retain this business. It feels to me that there's been a mindset shift.

I still think that people are massively underestimating the power of this type of content and also really assessing it in the wrong way in terms of how they think about the pricing and how they think about the measurements of success. So yeah, it's still a bit frustrating, but I feel that there is some progress.

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Rhona Pierce (21:17.24)
So as a creator and a successful creator in this space, how do you have those conversations? Like when you talk to potential sponsors or brands that you're partnering with, how do you guys define and measure success?

I think you've got to find out what it is that that company is looking for. If it's like, want to really affect the sentiment around our brand, we want influence, we want people talking about us, we want content. Because I think the other great thing about the work that we do is it's not just for us, it's content that brands can use and all that sort of stuff. They want content, they want all those kinds of things. I really try and find out what

what people want from the start. I think if it's just this kind of, do you know what? No, we want leads and we're measuring this on very hard metrics. I probably won't do the campaign to be honest with you because it's just, I could probably, I can be confident that I could deliver those things, but I can't, you can't really measure them from the way that podcasting works. And I'd much rather work with people who

are looking to maybe a different stage in their marketing journey and are really looking to raise that awareness, get people thinking positively about the brand. And also, think that this type of content really helps close deals that are already in the funnel. So, middle of the funnel, bottom of the funnel, all of that kind of stuff. And that never gets taken into consideration because certainly with the sponsors that I work with,

They've got very long sales cycles. Some of them have sales cycles up to a year. And it's like you have to keep people moving through that. So yeah. I'm just sort of very sort of keen to find out what people's motivations are and also just explain to them the sort of unique benefits of podcasting, which I can talk about in a second and how that might help them. we just sort of take it from there basically.

Rhona Pierce (23:25.61)
Yeah, I've got into the point through experience now that I have a drop down in, okay, yeah, we're going to work together. Let's talk about this. Let's fill out this quick form before we jump on a deeper call. And I specifically put in one of the things, what's your main, your top goal. When they click on that demos one, I already know we're having a different conversation and this is either going to be a

that we continue talking for the 45 minutes or it ends in like 10, 15 minutes because like you can't, like you said, it's so hard to track the demos and stuff like that. that's what you're gonna be measuring, cause people don't say like, most people don't say, hey, I came to you from listening to you on my walk. I was listening to recruiting future and I heard about this.

Yeah. And also, the other thing is, I find this is really frustrating for me, but if they do, they don't report that back when they're... That gets lost in the mix of when they're making a sale. I've got a particular client who is continually saying to me, I wish more people said that they'd heard about us on your podcast. I know six people, six companies who've bought their product, who've said to me separately, I first came across them on your podcast. So it's like they tell me...

Buddy.

Yeah, that happens so much or like

Matt Alder (24:53.55)
Everything is going to track digitally and electronically. It gets lost from the mix, which is frustrating. Podcasts are incredibly influential just because of the way that they operate as a medium.

What are the main benefits that you see from podcasting as far as when it comes to influencing consumers and just people in general?

So yeah, I mean, let me go through them. the probably the most interesting thing about podcasting is when people listen to it. So people will listen to podcasts when they're normally doing something else. So the washing up, traveling on a plane, walking the dog. I remember someone sent me a message once saying that they listened to my podcast every morning when they were doing their sit ups, which was, you know, perhaps too much information.

But people are doing something else. They're doing something that's not very taxing on their brain, something habitual, which actually means their brain is much more open to taking in information. The other thing is, they're not in a conference. They're not looking at LinkedIn. They're not being bombarded by millions of other marketing messages. Then the other aspect of that is 99 % of people listen to podcasts through some kind of headphones.

So your voice is going directly into their head, directly into their brain at a point where they're not getting any other marketing messages at a point when their brain is most susceptible to taking in information. And I've not just made this up. This comes from scientific research that's been done on podcasts all the time. So that's a really big part of it. People are very open to listening to messages. There's a huge amount of research about how

Matt Alder (26:47.214)
positively, sponsorship messages and marketing messages on podcasts are actually received by the audience, particularly if the podcast host is reading them. And also, if the sponsor is very much aligned to the values of that host and the values of that podcast, and it feels authentic, which to me is important. There are companies that I have not refused to work with before because

I didn't feel that we kind of completely aligned on that. again, there's an element of trust about this as well because people listen to that podcast, eventually they trust what the host says. If the host is effectively endorsing a particular vendor or recommending they take a look at them, they tend to do it. So it's very powerful from that perspective. Also, it's long form.

in a world of short form messages. So there's a chance to get more information across. And this is the issue because if someone's listening to the podcast, they're walking their dog, they're thinking, oh, that's really interesting that they're always talking about that company. I'll check them out. There's no click path for that. It's just, they're just going to go and do it whenever they do it. So yeah, I think they're the advantages of it. Also, it's evergreen content.

podcast doesn't really cover the news of the day or anything like that. there are great podcasts that do that. People listen to my podcast episodes from five or six years ago and still finding them relevant. So there's a massive, massive shelf life about them as well, which you don't really get with anything else that I can think of. can't think of any other thing like that where it's as accessible three or four years later.

than it is in the moment. So yeah, there's just some. could go on for about another hour, but that's not for everyone with them.

Rhona Pierce (28:48.268)
Yeah, I like to tell people really podcasting is like the same way we used to talk about blogging a decade ago. That's how like the reach and the evergreenness of the the content. It's really amazing. I like get people commenting or like writing to me stuff about like my very first episode last year. And I was like, the podcast had a different name. I was like.

cringe, like maybe I should go back and re-edit those episodes because I was editing them. I have a, like, not that I'm not a professional at this, but my team, I believe, is way better at this than I am. So I'm like, should I go back to those episodes? And people are listening to things from a year ago.

I would beg people not to listen to the first 10 episodes of my podcast. They're still there. But I get messages like that as well. Someone's like, I've just found your podcast. I thought I'd go back to episode one. It's like, really? It's not Game of Thrones. You don't have to follow the story through. But if you want to, that's fine. But don't listen to the first 10 episodes.

That is commitment because you've got 700 plus episodes. So going back to.

I think I had 400 at the time, but even so that's a lot to listen to.

Rhona Pierce (30:04.246)
That's a lot. I like to tell brands like just this week I had someone I this was before this podcast. This was before I was even talking in this niche. I was doing content for job seekers and I had someone schedule a call like automated call for like a discovery call for service. I haven't sold since like 2020. And I was like how did this person find this link? And like my main goal on that call was to figure out how they found that link.

Cause I had to go take that link down. Well, it was from back in the day. I went on someone else's podcast prior like 2019 and they found they had the link. So I had to be like, Hey, I don't sell this anymore. Your episodes doing fine. It's doing great. Still. Can you like remove that CTA?

think that's the thing as well. for me, one of the biggest things about my podcast is that evergreen nature of it. And it just creates a big back catalogue over time. I think also with the way that podcast advertising has changed, so you can do dynamic insertions, so you can actually put ads in that back catalogue, timed specifically around it, which is amazing. And I've also set up a whole AI infrastructure to be able to

interrogate this three million words of podcasts to look for trends and things like that. Again, it's a unique part of this particular medium.

I wouldn't have expected less knowing how you are always at the cutting edge and AI and everything, how you're leveraging it for that. So podcasting is huge today. And like some would say it's a crowded space. If someone's thinking of starting a recruiting podcast, how do they go about standing out when others like you have this massive head start?

Matt Alder (31:57.272)
So I think the first thing to say is it isn't a crowded space compared to some other spaces. So I can't remember the exact numbers, but there's something like, it's either a hundred thousand or 400,000. I can't remember like podcasts that are active that have had more than 50 episodes or something like that, which is nothing compared to the amount of blogs and TikToks and stuff like that. So that's the first thing to say. However, we are in a relatively...

relatively small business niche. know every company in the world has recruiting and talent people, but I'm sure the finance world and the marketing world is probably bigger. So can feel quite crowded. the first thing to say is, it's not too late to start a podcast, but you have to really, really think about it. If you want to start just a generic interview podcast interviewing people you think have got a bit of a network, you're just not going to get very far with it.

The thing to think about is your average heavy podcast listener probably only listens to two or three podcasts relatively regularly or four, not very many. To get their attention, you're to have to replace one of those or make them create extra time. That's the challenge. I just think it's really important to think about

how you stand out, know, find an angle just like you have with this podcast. I think it's fantastic. No one's doing anything like this. So it's kind of finding that angle. What is it that's going to make me stand out? That angle has to absolutely resonate with the audience. So just because you think it's interesting, doesn't necessarily mean that your audience is going to think it's interesting. So that's another aspect to it. And it has to be something that you enjoy and you're curious about.

because podcasting can be quite hard and a bit of a slog and you really have to really be engaged with it. So think if you can kind of meet all of those criteria, then you're going to do well. The other thing about podcasting is there is no easy... mean, Spotify is maybe a little bit better, but there's no easy podcasting discovery. There's no sort of algorithm that's going to throw your podcast at people. So, yeah, you have to do the work.

Matt Alder (34:15.118)
The way that podcasts grow the most is through word of mouth. It's through people asking people what podcasts they listen to. Now, sometimes those conversations will happen in public on LinkedIn. It's great to see yourself tagged. More than often, they don't. So because of that, you have to make your podcast something that people want to listen to and they want to recommend to other people. So that's why the audience is critical in this.

because you have to have that base of people who all kind of recommend it. you know, it kind of, it's quite daunting, but people have successfully done it. But it's just not, I think, particularly during the pandemic, there was kind of an epidemic of people sort of starting podcasts. And it normally went along the same route, which was, I'm starting a podcast. Here's a picture of my studio. I didn't have anything like a studio for about five years. I was using some cheap mic and all that sort of stuff.

I'm launching the podcast in six weeks. Stay tuned." I don't care. If you're launching the podcast, launch it. Tell me. Give me something to listen to. Those podcasts, some of them didn't even launch and very few went beyond a few episodes because it feels like it's easy to do, but it's difficult to get traction. Also, I think you have to think about why you're doing it. When I first started my podcast, it was for that sense of finding out stuff and just doing things in public.

I didn't even look at the stats for the first 50 episodes because that wasn't what I was doing and wasn't what I was chasing. I think sometimes people might make, particularly brands themselves, might make a short series of five podcasts that are fantastic, that serve the purpose that you want to fulfill with them. So think knowing why you're doing it is another important aspect to it. it's not impossible. It's never too late. The mediums are changing all the time.

If you can kind of meet all those criteria, then absolutely go for it.

Rhona Pierce (36:13.486)
If you were starting recruiting future today, like right now in 2025, what would you do differently?

Two things. First of all, I probably wouldn't call it recruiting future. Yeah, well, the reason for that is over time, obviously, talent acquisition is the key focus of it. But it's just much more broader than that. It's the world of work, everything about talent from a TA lens. And I can just see silos kind of breaking down in HR, the world changing.

Maybe I wouldn't have quite the same title. I'm not changing it now because of everything. The brand awareness and everything from the SEO, etc. But maybe a different title. But I would also start building an email list of listeners from day one, not from year six, basically. Because ultimately, you need a way to communicate with your listeners about the podcast and about what's going on.

And actually building an email list around it is the best way to do that. So I was very late. I was very late to the party with that, which is kind of frustrating. So I think that's the thing I'd change.

I like that you said that as I've been ghosting my email list, but I realized that it keeps growing. I'm like, I should probably email these people. So there's an email going out tomorrow after like probably a couple of months, but yeah, it's so important. And really, think looking back, that's really how the podcast grew at the early stages. Cause my people on my newsletter would forward the...

Rhona Pierce (37:52.766)
email to someone else who would then read the email, sign up for my email list and listen to the podcast. So it's really a good way to grow it too. And like you said, keep that communication. Is there, what would you absolutely do the same if you were starting again today?

I would have the same approach to content, have that kind of that future focus thing. I wouldn't buy this expensive microphone, and I've been doing it for about seven years. I would still be consistent and I would absolutely, you know, really just make it an audience first.

podcast is really think about, you know, what does the industry need and what can I help give them? Rather than what would I like to talk about, which could be quite interesting. And I think that's the, that's the real sort of fundamental, fundamental thing about my podcast that, that I will, I will always stick to. And I think it's why it's still around 10 and a half years later, actually still, still rumbling on.

Amazing. So if you've ever watched the show or listened, you know that I like to do segments towards the end. And I'm previewing a new segment with you. This one's called The Cutting Room. Just a few rapid fire questions about the stuff that we don't usually hear like episodes that you scrap, guests that you still want, etc. Are you ready?

I'm not sure, but go on then. Let's see what happens.

Rhona Pierce (39:30.926)
So, was there ever an interview you recorded but you didn't publish? Tell me more.

Yes. I've had a couple. One of which was because of just awful sound and we couldn't fix it. One of them was, I'm going to, they'll remain nameless. It's not someone that you know, but it was someone who was, should have been an absolute expert in what they were talking about. And because of the organization that they worked for and what they've done,

As we went through the interview, was just apparent that they didn't, they weren't, and they were. was just unsavable. I just couldn't publish it. That's probably the best example I can think of, just because the content wasn't good enough. I think that's what motivated me to make sure that I don't take anything for granted and I speak to everyone before they come on the show. Because I thought this person was just

absolutely going to be great. And they really were.

most famous guest that you've had on your podcast.

Matt Alder (40:42.872)
Good question. Probably Rory Sutherland, the behavioral marketing guy from Elgavie with the big Ted Talks and the really interesting book. He's at Request UK this year. So I had him on four or five years ago, I think. I've had some other authors on as well, but he's probably the standout one for me. And also back on episode...

my God, like episode 11 or something. I managed to get an interview with Laszlo Bock, was the global CHR of Google at the time. And he'd just written a bestselling book and he kind of came to London, did an interview with the BBC, The Economist and me. At the time that was quite a big, I was like, that was quite a big, a big coup.

Wow.

Rhona Pierce (41:33.954)
Dream guess that you haven't landed yet.

dream guests that I haven't landed yet. That's a good question. yeah, it kind of keeps, it kind of keeps changing. I'm trying to let me think about, let me think who, that's just, that's, that's a, that's a really tough one because, you know, it's always a, it's always a moving target. I always really want to get, you know, I'd love to get like.

a president or a prime minister or someone like that. I almost got the Scottish first minister on once, which is the closest I could get to a head of state. So a head of state of some kind would be fantastic. So if you're only listening, you have an open invitation to be on the podcast.

I was gonna say a really bad joke because I heard that there might be a head of state that's visiting Scotland.

Yeah, well, know, I'm going to make a few exceptions for certain people.

Rhona Pierce (42:42.198)
If you could redo one episode, which one would you redo and why?

That's a good question. could read it. The challenge I have so many episodes. I'm trying to think of examples. I give you a bit of a generic answer. There's sometimes that people will come across really well in the introduction topic meeting. then, particularly if they've not done many podcasts before, just not really deliver on the promise of what it looked like they were going to do in the...

the intro meeting. So there's probably a few of those where I felt that the person didn't live up to what they could have done on the podcast. And I think they're the ones that I probably would want to redo. I mean, as I say, there's been a couple that I never published and I'm also very lucky that I have got a completely ninja editor who can rescue stuff and make it sound amazing, which kind of really helps as well.

Yes, that helps a lot. So I really enjoyed this conversation. Is there anything that you think listeners should know that I haven't asked you?

Yeah, that's a good question. think that one of the... And it of goes back to an earlier question that you kind of asked me about the creator economy. It's like the kind of the whole notion of sort of professional creators or semi-professional creators. If that's your kind of aspiration, then you are doing two jobs because you are doing your subject matter thing. But keeping up with...

Matt Alder (44:24.846)
these platforms and how they develop and everything is almost a full-time job by itself. Even podcasting, which the core technology is the same, but the thinking around it has changed, the introduction of video. Unfortunately, 10 years ago, you could probably just record a podcast, record a video, stick it on YouTube, and it was great. As you know, the things that you need to know now to be successful on YouTube.

to successful as a podcaster. There's a whole industry around this. think if you want to do this as a job, then you have two jobs. And I think that's just a really important thing to say because it isn't easy to operate at that level. mean, anyone can start a podcast and provide value, but if you want to really go for this and build a really big audience, build really big influence and do it as a job, then you have two jobs.

And think that's just a really important thing to say.

I love that you said that because there's so many people out there who are usually typically selling you something, telling you how easy it is. And as someone who sells production and post-production, especially of podcasts and the clips and all of that, when people come to me and say, I want to start a podcast, I tell them it's one of the most expensive hobbies you will have. if you're not like,

Be sure why you're wanting to do this because you're gonna put in a lot of time and money at times If you don't know how to edit your own or episodes and stuff like that. You're gonna put in a lot of time and money before You can see any results and if you want to do it Well, you have to take it seriously and do it. Well, yeah

Matt Alder (46:15.342)
I think you can see it from some of the creators in our space already who are absolutely nailing it on one platform. Millions of views, 100,000 views. And then you look at them on another platform and they've got 10 followers and nothing's going on because to get that level, you have to be so all in on your platform. It's like me with YouTube. It's like when I really educated myself about how YouTube worked, was like, I just... I'll put stuff up on there but I'm not expecting to fly with any of it because that is...

That is a kind of another full time job that I can't really take on.

Yeah, like I changed my focus from like, okay, this platform is going well. I can teach it to my team or someone to like run the, I still always write my content, right? Or produce my content. Like I'm always involved in the creative of it, but you get to a point where it's like, okay, we've got this platform down for now because it'll change next week. Let me move on to the next one. And that's why one platform you can see a ton of followers, a ton of traction and the other it's like, huh?

I'm new again. So that's the thing with being a creator. You are always new You are either new on a new platform or you're new because the platform changed. You're always new. You're always learning

Yeah, totally.

Rhona Pierce (47:31.374)
So how can listeners connect with you?

But first of all, if you don't already, please listen to my podcast. Recruitingfuture.com is the website, but you can find it wherever you listen to your podcast by searching for Recruiting Future. I'm on LinkedIn. As Matt Alder, I'm very easy to find. Please connect with me. If you listen to the podcast, please tell me what you think. It doesn't have to be nice as well. If you can see room for improvement, then please let me know. So yeah, really LinkedIn and the podcast are the best places to start with.

And if you want to listen to Matt and I live, unfiltered, unscripted, every week, we are on the Alder Hour, which is part of the Purple Agor Network, just like Workfluencer, every Monday. I won't even say what time it is, because I don't remember what time it is. It's at a different time in every time zone. it's every Monday. It's live on LinkedIn and on YouTube and also wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm glad you mentioned that.

I think Evan would be like, you guys did an episode together and did. So thanks so much for listening. If you're enjoying the workfluencer pod, share it with someone who's changing how we talk about work or who should be. And hey, if this episode gave you ideas or inspiration,

Rhona Pierce (48:53.27)
Leave us a 5-star review. Reviews help other listeners find us. And honestly, it makes my day. Workfluencer is produced by Perceptible Studios. Learn more about how we can help you use video to attract, engage, and retain qualified talent at perceptiblestudios.com. Thanks for listening and I'll chat with you next week.