The Cost of Speaking Out in HR with Anessa Fike

Anessa Fike (00:00)
able to take that hit because of my packaging. And I think I leaned into that even more understanding that piece because if we don't, then how does the world change? And I don't see enough people that look like me to say, I'm going to do the thing. I'm going to say the thing. I'm going to call it out. And their bubble of comfort is a bubble of comfort they have made. And I often ask,

Why do you feel like you have to stay in that bubble of comfort? What is it that you're worried about losing? Because that thing you're worried about losing is something people like us don't have every day. So you are taking it for like, you're being like, I'm going to protect myself, which means you are not protecting everyone else. And that's how I view it.

Rhona Pierce (00:49)
Hey everyone, welcome back to Workfluencer Podcast. I'm so excited to have Anessa Fike today here. ⁓ You've built a career and a reputation by saying the things that most people won't. And today I really want to dig into how you built that kind of voice, what it actually costs to use it and why you keep going anyway. So like, let's start really with where it began for anyone who doesn't.

Isn't familiar with you? Give us the 30 second elevator pitch.

Anessa Fike (01:22)
Okay, so 30 seconds is I was a former journalist that fell into recruiting and then I fell into HR from recruiting. And for the last almost 12 years, I have done fractional HR leadership work. And in that 12 years, I've worked with over 125 organizations in 33 countries. And I am pretty sure that I started the fractional HR.

industry in the US because I have not yet met someone who has done it before me in the US. So there's that.

Rhona Pierce (01:55)
Amazing. Yes. And what you're not saying is that you've worked with large corporations, you've worked with small corporations, you've really seen a lot of it. And I too think that you've been doing fractional. I haven't heard of anyone doing it longer than you here in the US. So like what pushed you to go fractional?

Anessa Fike (02:15)
My goodness. Well, it was an interesting foray into entrepreneurship for me. So I was actually global recruiting director at the Motley Fool. And we had decided, my husband and I, that we didn't want to have a family in the D.C. area. We love Washington, D.C., but let's be honest, the cost of living is very high there. So we looked at it and we thought, OK, about four thousand for a mortgage and four thousand for daycare in one month. That's eight thousand dollars out the window.

And early in our career, I was like, I don't know if I want to do that. And so we decided to move to North Carolina and we had had a house in North Carolina. We rented it while we were in DC for a couple of years. And so we were like, let's move back. I actually had a conversation with the CEO and the chief people officer at the Motley Fool. And I said, would you open up North Carolina so I could move there and still work at the Motley Fool? And they said, well, actually, what if you started your own business and we were your first client? And I said,

Okay, well, I had never thought about starting my own business. Let me think about that. And I took I think a week, it wasn't very long. I came back to them and I said, Okay, what would that look like? And so we started to have conversations. And at that point, I started to think I don't want to do the business model that was already set. I didn't want to be an agency. I could do recruiting and HR. But I was like, I don't want to be in the agency model because that feels like a lot.

that is not in my control. And I'm on type A August Virgo. So for me, that mechanism of control is something that I'm like, I kind of want to have a little bit more of. And so I looked at it and I went, well, how would I design it if I could design however I wanted to work? And I took a little bit of influence from the Motley Fool in their subscription and their membership model. And I thought, how can I do recurring revenue that is not tied to an hourly rate?

that allows me to do the work that I wanna do with the people that I wanna work with. And that is where the fractional model came from. So it really was me bucking all of the business models that were in place and thinking, I don't wanna do any of that. So how can I do something differently?

Rhona Pierce (04:28)
For people that think that fractional is just consulting with a different name, what really makes it different?

Anessa Fike (04:36)
Yeah, so I typically say there are three different parts. You've got advisory on one side that is just wholly strategic. So basically they're not doing anything operationalizing that strategy. Then you have consulting, which is actually operationalizing a strategy someone else made. And then you have fractional, which is in between. And that fractional person does both.

So they come into an organization, they look across the organization at many departments, if not all, and they say, this is what we need to do moving forward, and here's how we're going to operationalize that strategy. Most consultants are not able to do that in terms of looking across the entire org, working with the board of advisors, working with the CEO to say, this is what you need to move the business forward. That is where fractional execs come in and can do that for businesses.

Rhona Pierce (05:28)
Do you think that you'd be saying the things that you say online and on stages as well if you were still full-time inside of an organization?

Anessa Fike (05:38)
I think for the right org maybe but I feel like they would it would definitely have to be like friends of mine that ran the work or something It's interesting right because I think that work and I write about this in my book I think that work is this weird microcosm where it's like when we go into work and we go into a workplace It feels like there's this I don't know if it's like this curtain or something that we have to come into But it's like once we pass into work

everyone that I know, dulls themselves down. Right? It's like, all right, here we go. We're going into work today. And I was just at Lattiverse yesterday in the bay. And it was funny because we were listening to Gretchen Rubin around the happiness project. She wrote that lovely book and she was saying, well, in the workplace, it's fun. You enjoy yourself. You have friends. And I had a friend turn to me and they said, what is she talking about? She's not talking about work.

And I was like, I know. So in most places, there is this like weird illusion that we step into, where we have to, we feel like we have to mask, we feel like we can't be the person, we feel like we can't say the thing. And why is it this weird differential reality? Right? Because it is a power dynamic of having cash for a job, but it also is humans and other humans. And we act so differently when we think about work.

And so would I say the same things? Probably not. I probably would still say many things. I always did when I worked for other people. ⁓ Some of it was appreciated, some of it was not. Most of it was not. And ⁓ I would still say some things, but I probably wouldn't have the freedom to say all of the things all the time.

Rhona Pierce (07:27)
If you've made it this far into the episode and you're not subscribed yet, now's a good time. Yeah, thank you for being honest on that because I think lots of people like forget that. ⁓ And I want to dig in a little more into like general privilege. I saw a post from another creator that said something and I'll read it. It said, I can afford the price of using my voice.

And in a large part, that's because I'm white, cis, straight, neurotypical. That's not a privilege I take lightly. And even though that wasn't something that you said, I was like, I want to talk to Anissa about this because I have a feeling that you might have a similar thought. So you've said similar things publicly. What does it mean to you to leverage your privilege instead of just acknowledging it? Yeah.

Anessa Fike (08:18)
Yeah.

So I, I was thinking about this actually in preparation for us recording this today. And if I take a step back and I'm honest with myself, I didn't start out thinking, Hey, I'm going to use my privilege for good. I started out thinking, Hey, there's this fire in me. And when I see injustice happen to people that do not look like me, I have to speak out. And

It's one of those things that if you know friends of mine from high school, if you know friends of mine from where I grew up, they will tell you that same thing, that like, this is the same person we've always known. Right. And it's interesting because I had a friend who I've known for years and years, 20 plus years. And this last year, he said to me, he said, there were a lot of people who said the same things you said when we all went to school together. And, and this was a black man saying this to me. And he said,

but they never actually did the thing and you did the thing when it mattered. And he said, and I always appreciated that about you. And so for me, I didn't start out thinking like that. Cause when we grew up as a kid, it's not like I'm going to use my privilege for good, right? When you're like 10 or 15 or 17, it's, I saw an injustice and I thought, how is no one speaking up about this? How is no one pushing this? How is no one calling this out?

And in the book, I even write about this in the Revolution of Work, I write about this where I saw my mom kind of do this in a different type of way. She kind of was that person who wasn't afraid to say the thing. And she was that person who ⁓ I played soccer for years and years. And if there was something that like a group of parents said that wasn't right and wouldn't have been beneficial to the kids, she was like, no, we're not going to do that. And here's why. Right.

And so I think that she showed me that it was okay to do that and to speak out when it mattered. And for me, I just kind of took it and ran with it. And then later on, as you start to learn and you start to look around and go, ⁓ this is why, right? This is why this matters. And I'm able to say more things. I'm able to say more things because of my packaging. I am able to sacrifice more because of my packaging. I'm able to take that hit because of my packaging.

And ⁓ I think I leaned into that even more understanding that piece, because if we don't, then how does the world change? And so for me, if we wanted the world to keep going how it's going, we'd keep doing the things we've always done. And I don't see enough people that look like me to say, I'm gonna do the thing. I'm gonna say the thing, I'm gonna call it out. And

their bubble of comfort is a bubble of comfort they have made. And I often ask, why do you feel like you have to stay in that bubble of comfort? What is it that you're worried about losing? Because that thing you're worried about losing is something people like us don't have every day. And so it's interesting for us to flip that switch and say, what are you so worried about losing? Because it's not something that other people even have. And so

I will even kind of push this one step further and say, I am not a religious person, but I'm a spiritual person. And so I have an astrologer. I love astrology. I've really gotten into it post-COVID. I don't know if it's some form of like having more control, being able to see like a little bit of that crystal ball type of situation. But for me, it's comforting in a way. And it's partially scientific with planetary alignments and things like that. So it makes sense to my brain. ⁓

When you do astrology, you have a birth chart and it's when you were born, where you were born and what the planets look like when you were born and how they were lined up. And we also each have a purpose in that birth chart. And I didn't know this until this year, late last year, that my purpose on the day, the time, the place I was born for me is speaking up against injustices in the world.

for people who don't have a voice as as mine. And when someone said that to me, I was like, yes, that's why I'm here. So literally it's why I'm here on this earth. So if I'm speaking out, it's because this fire inside that's always been there, I can't quell it. I don't wanna quell it. I'm not supposed to quell it. And so the more that I feel, I feel more alive and aligned with myself.

when I'm honest and authentic and call the things out. So I just wish there were more people who did so.

Rhona Pierce (13:05)
I absolutely loved it. I didn't know that that story. And yeah, I mean, definitely it makes sense because I can really tell that you're the real deal. And I've told you this. It's not it's not a performance. What's that line between like being bold and being performative?

Anessa Fike (13:16)
But thank

think the thing is if you don't sacrifice something, if there's not something you've ever had to give up, if you're not giving up something on a consistent basis, if you are allowed to remain comfortable more often than not, you are not doing the right thing you're performing. And I think that ⁓ the world is not a pie.

Just because someone has part of a pie doesn't mean that there's only six pieces left and we're gonna run out. And I think that's why we're in such a ridiculous state that we're in now and why it's so awful is because people think that way. And I've always had an abundance mindset. I've not really had a scarcity mindset. I'm human, so I fall into it every now and then. But most of the time I have an abundance mindset. ⁓ And I think the world can change and I think we can be better.

And for me, it's really just focusing around whatever it is that you think is hard, right? So if you have the same packaging as me, if you're a white woman, if you are side gender, if you're straight, like if you are able-bodied, if you, I have an invisible disability, but I still consider myself pretty able-bodied. ⁓ If you have all of those privileges and you haven't felt uncomfortable.

to where it scares you, for saying something. You're still performing.

Rhona Pierce (14:57)
I love that. That's classic Anessa saying the thing that's like saying it and saying it boldly, but it's true. I really do agree with you because obviously we have different packaging. don't have the same privilege that you have, but I can always find situations where I have more privilege than someone else. Right. And I'm also

like you since I'm small have been very outspoken and very like even with my parents, my parents are very religious. And it was funny, I was talking to to my mom recently and she said something and I was like, but why? Why do you believe that? Why? And I won't get into what it was. And she's like, you've always been this way ever since you're a kid. I've been like, why don't we agree with those people? Okay, we don't believe the same thing. But that doesn't mean they're wrong. Right. Like,

Why are you right? And why are they right? I've always been that way. Even like, it would get me in trouble a lot, but it's like, it's true. If you are just saying things and you're not getting in trouble for them and you're not sacrificing anything, then you're just performative. 100 % agree with that. So let's talk a lot of, a little about the cost.

Anessa Fike (16:12)
Right.

Rhona Pierce (16:18)
Yes. Of saying the bold thing. So you've called out some of the biggest issues in HR. Yeah. DEI theater, performative hellish ship, like who gets the mic on stages? And you literally tag people directly when you talk about them. ⁓ What's been the hardest part of being so outspoken?

Anessa Fike (16:38)
You know, honestly, ⁓ it's not hard because for me, even though these things happen, even though people say, ⁓ you know, she does this and I can't believe she said this thing and I can't believe I didn't want those people in my circle anyway. Right. The things I would say are hard is any business owner will tell you when you have a client

and maybe they don't align with your values and they've paid you already to give that money back and say, no, it's not worth it. It's not aligned. It's not principled. I've given hundreds of thousands of dollars back to clients and said, nope, here's your money back. We can't work together. ⁓ That's interesting, but I actually, ⁓ I don't actually think of that as a hit.

I think of that as a redirection. And so for me, it was like, I would have hated every day that I worked with those people. I would have been in discomfort every day in a bad way to where it was like, these people are not morally aligned with the values that I have. And I was glad that I found that out early on in a commitment with a client. I've only ever fired three clients out of over 125.

⁓ And those three clients were fired because there were morally misaligned values. And all three of those clients prepaid. And then we got into it and I said, ⁓ this isn't going to work. And I said, here's your money back. And so, you know, there are people who probably would say, I need that money and I get it, right? I get that as a business. You need that money. You need to put food on the table for your family. A hundred percent.

And I have a privilege to be able to say, I don't need it in that way. And that is such a privilege for me to do it. But I also realized that in doing that and firing those people and saying, here's your money back, it shocked them in a way that I think changed a lot of how they go about what they do now, because they were never thinking that someone was going to give back like $80,000, $100,000. So for me, me saying, no, this isn't gonna work.

sorry you're fired, actually changed that in that way.

Rhona Pierce (19:08)
That's variable. That's another example of you like really standing for what you believe as a business owner myself. I can tell you that is a scary, scary place to be in. And I can tell you honestly, I've done the opposite because I've been, I've got scared and I've been like, my gosh, my gosh, my gosh, I can't give them their money back. I need the money. Even though I know where it's going to end. And it usually doesn't end well anyway, because

You don't feel well working for people that you know are not doing the right thing or are not aligned morally.

Anessa Fike (19:47)
⁓

On the other side of that too, like I'm white so like I can give it back. But also like I for some people that don't look like me and I'm like, you know what? Take their money, reparations, you know? Like for me, I'll be honest. It's like, okay, that's cool with me, right? I like I actually have fun with that.

Rhona Pierce (20:06)
because my husband's white and I tell him like the way we run our businesses are totally different because again he has and again he's a white male from the Midwest he has a different privilege than I do but sometimes like I'll see him have a client and he'll be like and I'll be like don't worry that's reparations just make sure to I can buy something directly from what they paid like I make sure it's like and I remember it's like ooh I bought this designer purse from that

100

Anessa Fike (20:37)
Percent. Pay back, right? It's reparations. Like I feel like some of that is and I always tell people that I'm like if you are if you don't look like me and you're in business for yourself, I'm always like if you can get that bag, get the bag, right? Like go for it. And if you're like, it's fine. I'll deal with that. like, who you know, if it's not going to like stress you out, though, the thing I would be more worried about is like, how's your mental health? Is it stressing you out? Like you don't deserve that. But if it's something like, could deal with them. I'm going take their money.

Go for it.

Rhona Pierce (21:10)
Yeah, great call out because yes, that's the other side of it. But it's something that you do really have to evaluate as a business owner. And I know in HR and most of the people that listen to this podcast or in HR or in TA, a lot of us are newer to the business ownership side of things. And this is something that you don't really deal with as an employee. So it's something to think about.

Anessa Fike (21:34)
will say too that what has been true for me and I know true for others that have done something similar to that is when you get rid of them, something better comes behind. And so if it's not really aligned with you, sometimes it is scary, but sometimes removing that is making room for a bigger, better client.

Rhona Pierce (21:59)
sure. Yeah. Has there ever been a moment when you've said something online or on a stage or even one on one to a client that you think who maybe I went too far?

Anessa Fike (22:11)
the time. It's interesting. So here's my thought on that. I'm an August Virgo. I can go very far. I have never gone as far as I can go to another human being. ⁓ But I know that. So, you know, I don't know if you follow all like the memes and things like that around like horoscopes and astrology, but it's been said that Virgos can burn your soul.

right, if we really wanted to. So I know that I can go that far and I always am cognizant to pull back to at least like 75%. So I've never actually given 100 % because I'm not sure people could take it and survive. And so for me, it's like, I'm always going to do that. ⁓ My 75 % is still pretty brutal. you know, it's kind of like, I'll give them 75.

But I am very cognizant of, I don't know that I could ever go that far, like my full capacity. ⁓ And it's not that I wanna hurt a human's feelings or anything like that, but it is sometimes, and I have this discussion with my husband a lot, because he's super introverted and opposite of me and he's a white man. And sometimes people either need a more gentle approach and understanding, which he is very good at.

Or they need like shocked and kind of like woken up and to change. And that's my way of navigating it. And I think we need both in the world. ⁓ And so for me, sometimes it does take that initial shock for people to realize what's going on and to kind of shake them out of their day to day routine to go, wait, what? And then that gets them thinking.

Rhona Pierce (24:02)
think one of the first times that I realized like, okay, Anessa is the real deal is when I saw you call out someone that I had perceived as being your friend and maybe they are or were your friend at that point and you call them out publicly, what do you say to people who think, ⁓ there should be like a difference of who you call out, like your friends, you should maybe like take them aside and tell them versus people you don't know.

Anessa Fike (24:29)
So I would say if there's a perception that I am friends with this person, just know that I have already approached that probably several times and gotten nowhere, right? And so there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes. And I will say if it's like something that they're not getting, something that they haven't realized is a privilege or something that they're saying is wrong, ⁓ then I will say, all right, like, we're gonna take this to the next step.

they know it's coming before it goes out. And so ⁓ they're not unaware. I'm a very direct person. They know it's coming. I would say the opposite of that is more of like your Adam Grant or Josh Bersin or people like that, that I don't know them directly, right? Like there are people that I know, but I often find that when I say things to them or tag them on LinkedIn, ⁓ they don't respond.

And the non-response tells me all I need to know. ⁓ It means they don't care enough to respond. Okay. ⁓ It still allows them to carry the privilege that they have even farther into the world, which is not good. ⁓ And when they do respond, they ⁓ oftentimes like try to make it light when it is not something that should ever be light. ⁓ And so for me, it's just, interesting because I just get so frustrated sometimes. I get so frustrated.

by like seeing Adam Grant say personal branding isn't the thing people should do, that it's self-promoting and boastful. Like, okay, because every book signing you've ever done, sir, is not self-promoting. Right, cool. It's not self-branding or personal branding when you do it, but it's personal branding when the rest of us do it. So things like that where it's just like the ⁓ hypocriticalness is massive. And I...

If there's one thing that I cannot stand, it is a hypocrite. And if there's one thing that I cannot stand, it is someone acting like they are this huge force for good online. And then you meet them and you learn what they're doing. And then you go, ⁓ you're not actually doing the thing that you say you're doing at all. And that is disheartening, I think, especially in our space. And so I often tell people, if you're following someone on LinkedIn, if you're following an HR influencer,

get to know who they really are because a lot of people are not what they say in this space, right? Like there are a few of us that know each other and we know that like we are who we say we are. We are the thing that we put out there and it's authentic, but there are a lot of people too that are not that. And I often, it's interesting. I hear thank yous. I hear keep doing what you're doing. I hear, ⁓

I never met someone who looked like you, who said the things you did and thank you for it. I can't speak up. I don't have that privilege from people who don't look like me. And what I hear from people who do like me, look like me is why do you keep putting us down? Why you're losing business? Don't you want to make more money? ⁓ Why are you saying the things against us? Right. And that's very telling. And so my mechanism of

if I say the right things, if I'm continuing to do the right things, because we all mess up. mean, like, especially in HR, talent, DEI, like, we're all going to have missteps. ⁓ But the mechanism of like a measurement of if I'm doing the right thing, and I'm still going down the right path is are people from historically underestimated groups coming to me and saying thank you. Then if that's the case, I'm doing the right thing.

And I'll be honest, if white people continue to hate me, I'm probably doing the right thing. So, you know, it's just like, that's what it is because they're going to protect their power. And every time a white person comes to me, it is absolutely to protect their own power and no one else's, to protect their own money, to protect their own power, to protect white supremacy. And it is never for anyone else.

So any white person that has come to me and said, can't believe you've done this or said things to other people, it's always that. And I'm never gonna side with that.

Rhona Pierce (28:51)
Quick break. If you've been thinking about starting a podcast, but don't know where to begin, I've got something for you. I'm letting woman in TA, HR, or employer brand take over the Workfluencer podcast for one episode.

Anessa Fike (29:04)
I am so excited to be able to do a podcast takeover.

Rhona Pierce (29:09)
Joining

Rona Pierce today as a guest host, Rona is the creator of the Workfluencer podcast. get a behind the scenes look at how I plan and produce everything. I handle all the editing and you walk away with a fully edited episode, social clips, and the audio to launch your own pod if you want. If that sounds like your kind of test drive, head over to workfluencerpodcast.com to apply.

That's amazing. ⁓ And it's so true because I've seen some of the behind the scenes of what you go through. yeah, so there's still a lot of the same faces, often older white men on conference stages. ⁓ What needs to happen for the speaker circuit to actually reflect the people doing the

Anessa Fike (29:56)
think that conference organizers need to stop being lazy.

They're lazy. That's why they're, we keep saying the same people. They're lazy. It's nepotistic. It's their friends. It's, they don't have to bring on a whole new group of people. They don't have to go find people. They don't have to pay those people. It's lazy and it's greedy. And I think if we just shift and say, being lazy and stop being greedy, because when you bring your friends on stage and your friend has done this for,

10 years and maybe they don't get paid or maybe they do get paid. ⁓ That's all very easy and we shouldn't be relying on what's easy. But again, that's what white people tend to do. So when conference organizers ⁓ are mostly white, they'd go the easy route. And so I just want us to think a little bit more around what does the industry look like and what do people in the industry need right now in this moment, right?

As practitioners, we don't want to hear what Josh Bersin has said about his analysis and research 10 years ago for the 20th time. I don't care because guess what we lived in. We don't need you to tell us what happened. We were there. And so I don't need to hear that. I don't need someone to pay him $50,000 for him to tell me that. I'd rather the $50,000 go to 50 speakers who need to be on stage that are each paid $1,000. That math isn't hard. It's just not lazy.

or greedy. And so I would say for a lot of that, it's, I'm, you know, I've called out many conference organizers. I've caught out transform. I've caught out. Sure. I've caught out on leash. I've caught out a lot of these conference organizers. And it's just like, can you stop being lazy and greedy? It's really not a high bar. It's real low. Can we just do a little better? And so for me, it's not hard to find people that are

amazing practitioners and have a voice and have something that needs to be heard in our industry. It's not difficult. ⁓ It just takes some thoughtfulness and some creativity and some business sense, which I have also learned that a lot of conference organizers truly don't understand how conference business works. So it's really just, again, just getting outside of what they normally would do, getting outside of their normal comfort zone. Again, back to like that bubble, right? Getting out of that bubble.

in a lot of different ways is better for you, it's better for the world, it's better for the people coming, it's better for everyone. ⁓ So I would just say, stopping lazy and greedy.

Rhona Pierce (32:38)
And I'll just say we're tired of hearing the same people. also it's like at conferences, I don't know if you've noticed, I've been to a few lately, a few of the ones that you've mentioned. aren't attracted to the conference because of this person being on stage. Half of the people don't even go to those keynotes. They go do something else at that, cause it's like, ⁓ we know exactly what he's going to say.

Anessa Fike (33:01)
Right. And I love that we're trying to be innovative, right? We're trying to be innovative with things, but can we not put AI all over the entire conference thing, right? Like we get it. We understand it needs to be talked about 100%. But this isn't an AI conference. This is an HR conference. And can we just get the basics right first? Because we can't even get those right. And then we want to talk about adding AI, which is going to compound bias and all these other things, make the basics worse that we're not, that we're already not good at.

And so for me, it's really like, let's focus on the things that we need to focus on. And to your point, most of us, honestly, the reason we go to conferences is to see each other, right? We go to see our friends. We don't actually, half of us do not attend the sessions because we do not care, because we have heard it so many times. And I'm going to tell you exactly what I also don't go for. I don't go for the musical acts on the last night.

Rhona Pierce (33:57)
my gosh.

Anessa Fike (33:58)
We're not

in college. I don't need it. I'm a grown person. I don't need to go. And I also really don't need to go and dance in front of a thousand other HR professionals. I really don't. So for me, it's just like, what are we there for? I think we've lost the plot for what conferences are supposed to be. We seem to think that these large, ⁓ you know, researchers are what we want to throw into the scheme of things to kind of be heard.

We keep putting the same people in place. We throw a musical act in there and throw a huge party. And it just seems like that's not what we're searching for. No one's asking for that. And I don't know why this continues to be the thing when the thing we're asking for are real resources, real support, real thought, real creativity, real credibility, real togetherness, real community. Right. Those are all things that we want.

And we're not getting that from a lot of these.

Rhona Pierce (35:02)
There's also something else that I've seen happen a lot and I know you've spoken about it. People claiming expertise and things that they haven't lived. yes. Why do you think that is so common in the HR and DEI world right now?

Anessa Fike (35:17)
my gosh. so first of all, think HR is one of those things that everyone thinks is easy until they do it. And they're like, wait, I could do HR. Then they do it. And you're like, wait, this is hard. Yes, this is hard. This is why we're here, right? ⁓ We're trying to understand and uncover different ways to make this less hard because it is hard. ⁓ But I also think that the expert thing is interesting. I think that...

There's so many people that come to me and say like, what do think about this fractional thing? And everyone's using fractional and they're not an expert. And I'm like, well, that happens in every single industry. Yeah. It happens where you have bad doctors, you have bad chefs, you have bad, you know, I don't know, architects, right? Like you have this in every industry. Why do we think our industry is any different? Number one.

We're going to have people who are good at their jobs and we're going to have people who are bad at their jobs. I think the distinction is, and our friend Tara Tarakains talks about this too, I think the distinction with HR and DEI is sometimes because we work with so many intangibles. We also don't follow the same definitions. So we're all working off of slightly different meanings of words.

And when we're doing that with mostly intangible things, that gets really hard. And so I think we need to almost like be more serious about what we're doing, how we're talking about things and what that means from an industry level, and then move forward from there.

Rhona Pierce (36:57)
How do you define expertise?

Anessa Fike (37:00)
For me, it's, you know, I would say it's going back towards, I wouldn't say like the 10,000 hours thing, but it's close.

I think for me, it's like the expertise is like the one thing that comes to my mind is like saying you're an AI expert when AI hasn't been around long enough for anyone to be an expert. And it changes so often that are you really an expert? And so for me, it's that piece where it's like given the, you know, the whole market of where we are, right? Like, can you be an expert?

It reminds me of like back in the day, and I don't know if you remember this, but like as a recruiter, when React came out and React was a new language. And I had so many clients that were like, we need five years of React experience. And I was like, well, that's impossible because React has not been out for five years. So like how's someone going to have five years of experience, right?

Rhona Pierce (37:57)
I was working at a place that only did staff augmentation for React developers at that time. So all we ever heard from clients, it's like, guys, no. We literally talked to the people who invented, like I sat next to the person who like invented React and he doesn't have five years of experience. So what are we talking?

Anessa Fike (38:07)
Makes no sense.

What are we talking about? So it's a lot of that. And like my mind always goes back to that because it's like, that's the most similar thing that I can say. It's like AI, see that, you see that with some of these other like experts. And so I always say like, for me, five years is a good indicator, right? Like if you've had five years experience, you probably are an expert. If you've had like three really hard years of experience, might be close to an expert, right? Like it can vary a little bit. But the way that I really like to judge it is,

Do you know enough around enough things, right? Like you can't have just worked at one place and done one job and been that expert. So it's interesting when people are like, I was a chief people officer at this one place and I'm like, now a CPO expert. You've done it once at one place, right? That does not make you an expert. You've done that job, but it doesn't make you an expert. And so for me, it's can you do it at more than one place?

Can you do it in a different type of environment? Do you know how to do it when it's hard economically and when it's good economically? Do you know how to do it when it is a conservative president or a progressive president, right? Do you know how to do those things? And do you feel comfortable to where it's almost like you could do the thing with your eyes closed? That then makes you an expert. So it's a little squishy and like,

there's not a hard line. But I think if you can do all of those things, you're on your way to being okay to say you're an expert. It baffles me with all these people being like fractional coaching, I'm fractional expert. And I'm like, you've done this for a year. How many clients have you had? And so it's just like weird to me because I'm like, okay, what are you an expert on? So yeah.

Rhona Pierce (40:04)
It's I get what people are doing. We're in a weird spot in a, I wouldn't say weird in a tough spot in our industry because so many people are out of work and then it's easy to be like, okay, I'm out of work. I tried to be fractional. It didn't really work. So now let me teach other people how to be fractional. You're just doing whatever it is to put food on the tables. Like I said it, but I think we really have to be more responsible and this is across every industry.

Anessa Fike (40:31)
100%.

Rhona Pierce (40:32)
when

we call ourselves an expert or when we present ourselves as an expert. It's like, it's fine if you don't know everything, just talk about the things you know, because you're definitely an expert at something.

Anessa Fike (40:44)
Yeah, it's too, it's like what detrimental factor are you doing for other people when you call yourself an expert and they rely on you to be that expert and then you give them bad information that then hinders them, right, in their business. Like that is where I think, right? I think there's like 12 steps ahead. It's interesting. So recently I had this conversation with a friend around another HR influencer and this HR influencer has...

typically put up things around like compliance and HR law and things like that. And recently kind of called out, these are the things that I wish I had known earlier in my career, or maybe I messed up earlier in my career, whatever. And the things that they put as like, now I know this, half of them were also illegal and still out of compliance. And so when someone is an influencer and they have tens of thousands of followers and they are telling people, especially people

earlier in their career trying to learn HR, that person is now going to go and think that that is right and that is lawful. Go do the thing for their company. Maybe they lose their job because they're not doing the right legal thing. And now that company is at risk. So like there are real, real life implications that happen when people are not real experts and they say that they are. It doesn't just stop with them. It now

goes through to that person's family, to that person's business, to that person's livelihood. Like that's where I take a huge amount of responsibility on myself to be a fractional coach. I actually never even wanted to be a fractional coach. I never wanted to be a coach. It was not on my bingo card. It was only after Transform several years ago where I had more than a thousand people in my LinkedIn inbox that next Monday saying, will you coach me? And it was...

a calling of people saying, we need your expertise, we need your help. And I thought, okay, fine, right? Like, all right, this was never something I wanted to do. I never wanted to do this. It was almost like the universe was like, you need to do this. And I was like, okay. So for me, it's one of those things where it's like, when you're doing this and you're putting it out there, don't just think about yourself, think about what you're doing and what you're saying to people and what happens if you tell them the wrong thing.

Rhona Pierce (43:04)
Yes, and it's okay to not claim you're an expert in things you're not an expert. Just find your thing, claim expertise in that. There's enough money in the world for everyone.

It's like, you know how many times a client asked me for something and I'm like, actually, that's, I, that's not what I do. I might like maybe this person or maybe this person, but I personally don't know how to do this. Now, if we want to go on the path together and learn, I'm capable of learning, but I'm very like open of like, I don't know this specific thing that you just asked me. I know a ton of other things, but this one thing I don't know.

Anessa Fike (43:43)
That just happened to me like literally two weeks ago. I had a friend I just met and they were like, my gosh, we need your help with all this HR stuff and all this finance stuff. And I said, okay, what finance stuff though? can do some, tell me what you need. And they said, we need this, this and this and this. And I could have faked it till I made it. But I was like, no, I can't do that. And in good conscience, I can't tell you how to run your business in this way, cause this is important.

I'm going to send you to an expert. So I sent them to another fractional CFO and like, here, this is your person, right? Cause to your point, I don't want to, I don't want to mess them up. It's not what I do. Yeah.

Rhona Pierce (44:24)
What would you say to someone watching all of this and thinking it's not worth the risk to speak up?

Anessa Fike (44:32)
Cool. This is an interesting one. I think that the way that my mind works is probably different than a lot of people. If I didn't speak up, it would eat at my soul.

And I would like to think that there are lots of humans in the world that want to change it for the better, that are truly empathetic and want to do that. And I would hope it would eat at their soul too, but I just don't know. And so for me that there's no other choice right for me. I actually would say

that if they could just put themselves in someone else's shoes for a day and just live for one day like how other people live, You, know, whether it's driving down the road and really realizing what a privilege it is to drive down the road, right? Being able to walk down the road and realizing what a privilege it is to walk down the road. ⁓ Having food on your table at night and being

realistic of what a privilege it is to have hot water and electricity and food on your table and shelter over your head. I think that we get so caught up in a lot of things that don't matter. And I think people also forget how much influence one person can have. And a lot of people might not do it or call it out because they think it's not going to matter, but it always

matters. And my piece on that, that second half of that is, you never know who is watching. You never know who you're inspiring. You never know who you're saving when you call that out. And the way, the thing that I always hear is like calling people in versus calling people out. Right. And one thing that I always think about is

When you call people out, you are calling yourself in to say, I'm here, I'm sacrificing, I'm doing the thing. When you don't call people out, you're sacrificing everyone else. So you are taking it for like, you're being like, I'm going to protect myself, which means you are not protecting everyone else. And that's how I view it. ⁓ I know that is very like cut and dry, but

For me, that's how I see it.

Rhona Pierce (47:17)
Amazing. Anything that I haven't asked that you think listeners should know.

Anessa Fike (47:23)
Well,

I don't know, I would say like, there is, I don't know if it's a question, but one thing that I would want to say is like, there is such beauty in being your authentic self and leaning into that. And for me, this is my authentic self and it's wild how many people meet me and say, you're the same person that you are,

Rhona Pierce (47:50)
We are.

Anessa Fike (47:52)
know how to be anything else. And so it is wild to me. And I understand, know, again, privilege, you know, I don't have to mask, I don't have to code, I have the privilege to do that. And I want more of us to just lean into that, right, and lean into it and find our spaces. Because what I found is, I didn't actually, I didn't really lean, lean hard into this and probably like my early 30s, like in my 20s, I still was trying to be a people pleaser, I still was trying to

do this thing and I think this is what I'm supposed to do and this one's supposed to say and this one. I always had that injustice piece in me, but I was always like, okay, fine. I'll do the thing, even though that's detrimental to me and blah, blah. But I think in my thirties, I started to go, you know what? That's not fun being someone else, right? And I also didn't find my people in our industry until I started to lean heavily into that, right? Into myself.

And so I feel like you find your crowd and your crew that is so aligned to you when you are authentic. ⁓

That's where I'd rather.

Rhona Pierce (49:07)
Love it. ⁓ And yes, 100 % when I like, I'll be honest when I first met you, because I knew my friends, some of my friends knew you. Yeah. And they all spoke highly of you. And I saw you online. I'm like, look, I

Anessa Fike (49:21)
You're like, don't know, it's another white chick.

Rhona Pierce (49:24)
Exactly. I'm sorry. I live in the where I live and there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of people who say one thing and then you get to know them and they're a whole other person. But when I met you, I had that whole like, okay, I remember telling my husband's like, okay, yeah, she is the real deal. Like you're exactly like you are online in person and I love surrounding myself with people like that.

Anessa Fike (49:52)
mean, it makes it more fun because you don't have to second guess things. And the thing that I love about like this now and the people that I surround myself with now is we're all going to make each other better. We're all going to be happy, genuinely happy for each other. Right. We're all going to if there's something that happens or something that goes down or like, hey, that was a misstep. Let's talk about it. Like we can be direct to say, did I mess this up?

Okay, what do I need to do differently? Right? And there's such amazing beauty in that. And we are able to get so much farther with us as a group than we would ever get alone. And we can't find that if we're not really being ourselves.

Rhona Pierce (50:42)
So I've loved this conversation. It's time for Plead the Fifth. So this is the part of the show where I ask you a few questions that might get you in trouble. You can plead the fifth only for one, right? But only one. ⁓ Are you ready?

Anessa Fike (50:45)
But... Thank you, yes.

Hmm. I'm excited. Let's do it.

Rhona Pierce (51:04)
So name the thought leader in HR that you think is totally overrated, but no one will say it out loud. And it has to be someone different that you've named.

Anessa Fike (51:13)
my goodness, something different. ⁓ gosh. Totally overrated.

It's funny because I can't think of any word that I haven't called out.

Let's go back to Adam Grant and Josh Bersin. HR influencer that I think is overrated. ⁓ you know, ⁓ I'll be bold.

I'm going to say two other people. So I'm going to say Tim and Lori. I think that Lori has, ⁓ she is not the same person in person that she is online. I've met her no less than a dozen times and she never remembers who I am. That tells me about a person. ⁓ I think that ⁓ she admittedly was not good at HR.

So why are we having her talk about HR? Why is she talking about HR? Why has she talked about HR and made money off of it for the last decade plus? If she wasn't good at it, how is her advice helpful?

So I would say that. Tim I think has said a lot of privileged things over the last couple of years. ⁓ And I think that he has been on way too many stages and he will not give his spot up. He is holding and clawing on so hard to that stage.

And I think he just needs to let it go. think he needs to make room for other people and he is being greedy and not doing so. And I also think that he really needs to realize how many people he hurts and probably all the biases that are coming into play when he recruits still.

with the privilege takes that he has. So he is one of those people that will not say that people need to think about Palestine and Gaza. He is one of those people who ⁓ does not very often look outside of his own bubble. And so for me, ⁓ it's not surprising that those two are friends, but those are the two I would say.

Rhona Pierce (53:41)
Wow. That one was bold. I wouldn't have expected less. ⁓ Next question. What's the most unhinged comment or DM you've ever received after speaking up online?

Anessa Fike (53:54)
⁓

Rhona Pierce (53:56)
⁓

Anessa Fike (54:00)
think the, I don't know if it's the most unhinged. I would say the thing for me is like, it's always interesting when white people DM me on LinkedIn and say that I'm never gonna have business again for my business. As in, as if only white people own businesses. And I think that's telling in itself.

Rhona Pierce (54:23)
Yes, yes it is. Okay, last one. Have you ever shared a personal story in content that wasn't fully true or was a bit exaggerated for impact?

Anessa Fike (54:35)
Hmm. No, I don't think so. ⁓

No, I actually, it's funny because I often like downplay things because it can get like, it can get pretty wild in these HR streets with some of the stuff we have to deal with. So I often downplay things. ⁓ No, I don't think so.

Rhona Pierce (55:02)
All right, so you survived Plead of the 50. You did Plead once. was like, okay, I'll be shocked if Anissa Pleads. But thank you. Thank you. So again, I've loved this conversation. Always love chatting with you. Where can listeners connect with you?

Anessa Fike (55:17)
Yeah. LinkedIn is my favorite place. I'm a really bad millennial, so I do not do Instagram or Facebook well, and I'm not even on TikTok, which I probably should be, but I'm not. so LinkedIn is like my socials home. You will find me there all the time saying lots of ridiculous things. And then also Fikenco.com, which is my fractional business site. And then if you want to read more of my words and my thoughts around how we should be thinking about work.

A Revolution of Work is probably best available on bookshop.org because it supports independent bookstores.

Rhona Pierce (55:54)
amazing. Well, thank you again for being on the show. Thanks so much for listening. If you're enjoying the workfluencer pod, share it with someone who's changing how we talk about work or who should be and hey, if this episode gave you ideas or inspiration,

Anessa Fike (55:57)
Thank you.

Rhona Pierce (56:09)
Leave us a 5-star review. Reviews help other listeners find us. And honestly, it makes my day. Workfluencer is produced by Perceptible Studios. Learn more about how we can help you use video to attract, engage, and retain qualified talent at perceptiblestudios.com. Thanks for listening and I'll chat with you next week.